Article XXII & Invocation of the Saints

Discussion in 'Theology and Doctrine' started by Toma, Aug 16, 2012.

  1. Toma

    Toma Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Dear friends,

    Does Article 22 tell us Invocation of the Saints is wrong in the English Church, or that it is only wrong in connection with the invented Roman Catholic theory of Purgatory?

    Here is the text of Article 22 of the Anglican Communion:
    XXII. Of Purgatory.
    [​IMG]HE Romish doctrine concerning Purgatory, Pardons, worshipping and adoration as well of Images as of Relics, and also Invocation of Saint, is a fond thing vainly invented, and grounded upon no warranty of Scripture; but rather repugnant to the word of God.

    In your charitable, loving, Christian debates, note that the title of the article is expressly Of Purgatory.

    Different opinions and ideas, supported by Scripture & the Fathers if you want, are welcome.
     
  2. Robert

    Robert Active Member

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    Well I am not sure where I would fit in as I do not believe in Purgatory or toll houses. I also beleive that the RCC's position on purgatory has evolved over the centuries. So do we argue abou their beliefs then or now? I do indeed pray with the Saints and ask them to pray for me just as I pray for all of humanity past and present. At first galnce I do not feel that this article refers to me or my praying with the Saints as I did not receive this practice from Rome but from the Orthodox Church. Therefore it is not a "Romish Doctrine" for me. Are you required to pray with the Saints? No. Are you allowed to if you feel it improves your spiritual life... I would say yes most assuredly. Does that mean I want to add anything to the BCP...No. Will I allow others on this forum tell me what I need to believe in order to be an Anglican or a good anglican...absolutely not.
     
  3. mark1

    mark1 Active Member

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    You have asked a direct question. I believe that the clear language of Article XXII prohibits the invocations of saints.

    See below for two references that discuss Article XXII and strongly argue that invocation of saints is prohibited by Article XXII. I have also included a short paragraph of Father Jonathan's support of the doctrine.
    ===========
    Essential Truths For Christians, A Commentary on the Anglican Thirty-Nine Articles and an Introduction To Systematic Theology (pp. 428-432)
    The Right Reverend John H Rodgers, Jr (2011)

    This is THE text used on the subject at Trinity School Of Ministry
    =======================================
    Introduction to the Theology of The Church Of England, an Exposition to the Thirty-Nine Articles
    Boultbee (1871)

    https://play.google.com/books/reade...utput=reader&authuser=0&hl=en_US&pg=GBS.PA182
    =======================================
    Father Jonathan supporting invocation of saints and citing a couple of sources on each side.
    http://conciliaranglican.com/2011/08/19/ask-an-anglican-purgatory-and-grace/
    ========================================
    THAT BEING SAID
    We are a Church of Scripture, Tradition, and Reason (and Experience). We grow through the centuries. I have no doubt that if we do a study of the role of Mary in the Church, we would find that Tradition strongly supports invocation of her help. This was the teaching and practice of the Church from the beginning through 1500, and yes there were and are abuses.

    We can discuss what we truly mean when we ask Saint Anthony to help us find something, or invoke saints in some other manner. Do we really intend to speak to the dead and have the dead secure favor with God. If so, I think that this is prohibited by the Articles. BTW, are not the saints in the place of the dead awaiting the Final Judgement?


     
  4. Toma

    Toma Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Mark1, thanks for the texts, I'll read them. :)

    I have reservations about this. Jude speaks of the faith once delivered to the saints. I doubt the actual realities of God and salvation 'grow'. If you mean our understanding grows, that comes to the point of "Development of Doctrine".

    Apart from Sub tuum praesidium in the 3rd century, and a few prayers to Mary by Ephraem the Syrian in the 4th or 5th centuries, I don't know if Tradition supports invocation of her that strongly, at least until ~ A.D. 600?

    I always thought the point of praying to the saints was to get them to secure something from God that we are unable to secure.

    That's always been my question. If they've "fallen asleep" (a frequent expression in the New Testament), there's no hope of talking to them. God spoke to the prophets in dreams, but I don't think that can be said to extend to us & the blessed dead. :p
     
  5. Gordon

    Gordon Well-Known Member

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    I to believe that Article 22 forbids the invocation of the saints, in relation to the doctrine of purgatory. e.g. Praying to Mary or John or which ever Saint to gain time off in purgatory.
     
  6. Anna Scott

    Anna Scott Well-Known Member

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    There are different interpretations of Article XXII. Some see the invocation of saints in the context of purgatory to be entirely different from the Communion of the Saints.

    I gave the example from Conciliar Anglican on the other thread: Ask an Anglican: Purgatory and Grace

    Here is another example.
    The Episcopal Diocese of Northern California: Celebrating All Saints’ and All Souls’ Day

    "All Saints’ Day, or the following Sunday as is often the case in our busy schedule, is when the Church honors all Holy Ones, known and unknown. Our English word “saint” literally means “holy.”

    In the broad sense, all we who are baptized are included in this category, but from the beginning of the Christian tradition, certain of the faithful whose lives were exemplary have been held before us as our models and guides.

    While we have information about many Saints, and we honor them on specific days, there are many unknown or unsung Saints, who may have been forgotten. On All Saints’ Day, we celebrate these Holy Ones of the Lord, and ask for their prayers for us.

    Thus, All Saints’ Day is tied in with the belief in the Communion of Saints, that all of God's people, in this earthly life and in the various states of the larger life, are connected in one communion. In other words, traditional Christians believe that the Saints of God are just as alive as you and I, and are constantly praying on our behalf.

    The Saints are not divine, nor omnipresent or omniscient. However, because of our common communion with and through Jesus Christ, our prayers are joined with the heavenly community of Christians."

    ________________________________

    As I said before, I've gone back and forth on the issue of asking the Saints to pray for us.
     
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  7. Andrea

    Andrea Member

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    There is a big difference between asking a saint to do something for you and asking for their prayers.
     
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  8. mark1

    mark1 Active Member

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    1) I agree that the actual realities of God and salvation cannot change over time. You are correct, I was discussing interpretation and development of doctrine. Of course, much of the dogma of the Church was developed hundreds of years after the Resurrection.

    2) We can research this more, but Marian devotion started much earlier than 600. Perhaps the best sources are Orthodox ones, since Marian devotions are integral tho Orthodox liturgy.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_(mother_of_Jesus)
    As I have indicated, I believe that the Tradition of the Church supports asking Mary to pray for us and supports Marian devotions. Of course, we must stop short of the Romish dogmatic excesses. However, I think that if we look to the ECF and the Orthodox, we will find that Marian devotion is normative rather than exceptional. Such practices were certainly nor forbidden.

    3) I think the key to understanding what we should believe regarding saints requires a joint understanding of what happens upon death and before the Final Judgement. I agree that many (most?) Anglicans have believed that we cannot be sure that the saints can hear us. If the saints can indeed hear us and act on our behalf, this implies an understanding of the afterlife that we have not discussed.

     
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  9. Toma

    Toma Well-Known Member Anglican

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    I don't believe the contention is whether they can 'do things' for us, but rather that Protestants don't believe in attempts to communicate with the Saints at all. It's especially difficult to believe that we can communicate with certain saints when we don't actually know if they're in Heaven. We often assume that the Apostles are in Heaven, for example, so can we pray to them? Well, Judas Iscariot was an Apostle... I doubt anyone asks him to pray for us.

    Perhaps the unsureness of the knowledge of Heaven's population is what leads many to hesitate.

    I agree with your points 1 & 3, but...

    The Orthodox Liturgies consist of that of Chrysostom most of the year, and those of Basil and James on special occasions. Most of their content cannot be traced back to A.D. 400, except the Anaphora at the very core of them. Is there any reason to assume that prayers directed to Mary in those liturgies are relics of ancient Marian devotion, rather than additions of later ages?

    I believe there are only a few scattered prayers directed to any saints from the first 400 years of our Christian life. Sometimes Ambrose of Milan might address Mary in his treatises, but I got the impression that this was like Paul addressing "Death" in 1 Corinthians: "O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?" - we must distinguish between rhetoric and prayer, something the Fathers often blended together.

    May I ask for some Patristic sources confirming a "normative" practice of devotion to Mary?
     
  10. Robert

    Robert Active Member

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    Consular,

    Can you qoute your source for this:
    "The Orthodox Liturgies consist of that of Chrysostom most of the year, and those of Basil and James on special occasions. Most of their content cannot be traced back to A.D. 400, except the Anaphora at the very core of them. Is there any reason to assume that prayers directed to Mary in those liturgies are relics of ancient Marian devotion, rather than additions of later ages?" I read a good book several years ago by Fr Lawrence Farley called Let Us Attend: A Journeythrough the Orthodox Divine Liturgy. If I remember correctly he disusses when each part was added to the liturgy.
     
  11. Toma

    Toma Well-Known Member Anglican

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    To be honest, the burden of proof is on those who claim an ancient lineage for these liturgies, not on those who deny their antiquity. That's a cheap answer, I know, and I'll try to find some sources for my assertion. :p

    Using common sense, I can say that any references to the Holy Theotokos in any divine liturgy at least mark those specific prayers as post-A.D. 400, given that the title was not definitively, officially applied to the blessed Virgin until 431. I doubt Basil (died 379) or Chrysostom (407) could have used a title that was non-existent when they lived.
     
  12. mark1

    mark1 Active Member

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    In my previous post, there was a long wiki article. See below for an excerpt. We could check the sources. I suggest that Robert would be best in tracking down the history of the Orthodox liturgy, but I certainly don't think that none is older than 400.

    2nd to 5th centuries

    Christian devotion to Mary goes back to the 2nd century and predates the emergence of a specific Marian liturgical system in the 5th century, following the First Council of Ephesus in 431. The Council itself was held at a church in Ephesus which had been dedicated to Mary about a hundred years before.[41][42][43] In Egypt the veneration of Mary had started in the 3rd century and the term Theotokos was used by Origen, theAlexandrian Father of the Church.[44]
    The earliest known Marian prayer (the Sub tuum praesidium, or Beneath Thy Protection) is from the 3rd century (perhaps 270), and its text was rediscovered in 1917 on a papyrus in Egypt.[45][46] Following the Edict of Milan in 313, by the 5th century artistic images of Mary began to appear in public and larger churches were being dedicated to Mary, e.g. S. Maria Maggiore in Rome.[47][48][49]


     
  13. Toma

    Toma Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Mark1, if we are to call it "devotion" when people erect churches named after holy Christians of past ages, then I wholeheartedly advocate Devotion To The Saints. We both know it goes beyond mere names, of course. :)

    The three sources cited in Wikipedia (not an entirely reliable site of itself) point to books by Roman Catholics. I should rather hope to find positive evidence of Marian/saint devotion from Protestants, or someone less likely to have a strong confirmation bias.

    If you want a Wiki, for initial ideas, look at the page for the Divine Liturgy of Chrysostom:

    "It is named after the anaphora with the same name which is its core part and it is attributed to Saint John Chrysostom, Archbishop of Constantinople in the 5th century."

    There's no source for this attribution on Wikipedia. All the Proper Prayers throughout the year have not survived from John's time, only the Holy Communion liturgy itself. All the Proper Prayers were necessarily super-added by the Orthodox Churches over time.
     
  14. Anna Scott

    Anna Scott Well-Known Member

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    Consular,
    I would agree that we don't know with certainty which of those we call Saints are actually in Heaven/Paradise. Certainly, the Blessed Virgin Mary is among the Saints of heaven.

    As for the belief that there should be no attempts to communicate with the Saints at all; keep in mind that the BCP Catechism says the living and the dead, are bound together in Christ by sacrament, prayer, and praise.

    1979 BCP Catechism
    Q. What is the communion of saints?
    A. The communion of saints is the whole family of God, the living and the dead, those whom we love and those whom we hurt, bound together in Christ by sacrament, prayer, and praise.

    This is probably why you will find Anglicans who see the Communion of the Saints as meaning both our prayers for the departed Saints, and the departed Saints' prayers for us. If we are bound together in Christ by prayer, why can't we ask for their prayers. That does not in any way replace or interfere with Christ as our mediator. Otherwise, we shouldn't ask the living to pray for us either.

    I'm still pondering the issue.

    Anna
     
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  15. Robert

    Robert Active Member

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    May I suggest if you are looking for a good resource on what Orthodox believe than I hihly recommend Fr Thomas Hopko's Podcast on Ancient Faith Radio called Speaking the Truth in Love.
    http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/hopko

    Fr Tom is the Dean Emeritus of St Vladimir's Orthodox Seminary in Crestwood, NY.

    Also, I am just curious Consular have you ever been to a Divine Liturgy?

    Edit: Looking at some of the podcasts titles I found these podcasts which seem to cover topics you are interested in:
    http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/hopko/intercessory_prayer
    http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/hopko/the_descent_of_jesus_into_hades
     
  16. Toma

    Toma Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Robert, I have visited the local Greek church here, and I have seen countless videos of divine liturgies from across the Orthodox communion. I've never been, but that's hardly germane to our saintly topic. ;)

    Hopko is a very good soul, who is calm and of a warm heart. I will listen to him.

    Anna, one thing about praying for the saints that bothers me is: how can you pray for a change in the status of someone who is already in eternity, a time & "place" where no status changes occur? That may be a bit deep into theology, I guess.
     
  17. Anna Scott

    Anna Scott Well-Known Member

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    Good question. Just to clarify, I don't believe in purgatory, although we may go through a final cleansing.

    God is eternal and knows, before a person dies, that I will pray for them.
     
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  18. Toma

    Toma Well-Known Member Anglican

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    I've heard that Anglicanism believes (or used to believe?) that souls go to an intermediate state after death. It is neither heaven, hell, nor purgatory: the saved go to a heavenly resting place that is not heaven, and the damned go to a hellish resting place that is not yet hell.

    Regarding eternity, and whether those in it can pray for us or be prayed for by us, did Anglican divines and theologians ever have a consensus on the "number" of judgments a soul goes through? Roman Catholicism affirms an immediate judgment after death, and then a second general judgment at the end of time. If we believe the same thing, how can we pray for the dead or ask the saints to do so, when all fates are sealed?

    Questions abound. :think:
     
  19. Adam Warlock

    Adam Warlock Well-Known Member

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    As they say in my part of the country, "Preach it, brother!"
     
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  20. Toma

    Toma Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Oh dear, you're in that part? My condolences... :)

    I wonder: if the "Romish doctrine" of Purgatory is false, what about other things? The Orthodox have had a few "toll houses" ideas, though that's hardly official.