Liberal direction of PEC-USA

Discussion in 'Theology and Doctrine' started by PDL, Jul 19, 2019.

  1. PDL

    PDL Well-Known Member Anglican

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    My view from the opposite side of the Pond is that Christianity in the USA seems to be fairly conservative. Why has The Protestant Episcopal Church in the United States of America moved in a liberal direction? Indeed, at best I believe it to be, at best, on many issues heterodox.
     
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  2. Peteprint

    Peteprint Well-Known Member Anglican

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    All of what are known as the "Mainline" denominations have moved into the revisionist camp since the 1960's. These are often termed the "Seven Sisters" of American Protestantism:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mainline_Protestant

    This Southern Baptist website has an interesting article about them:

    http://www.sbclife.net/article/73/a-sad-story-of-seven-sisters

    Their conclusion:

    "It is not demographic pressure, but deviation from Christian orthodoxy and norms of conduct that are responsible for the regrettable state of the mainline denominations. Their decline is an ominous warning to all who depart from biblical rootage. Not sociological remedy, but theological and ethical renewal alone will restore their former glory."
     
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  3. bwallac2335

    bwallac2335 Well-Known Member

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    I would say that the Methodist Church has been the only one to retain its teachings against homosexuality and is by far the most conservative
     
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  4. Brigid

    Brigid Active Member Anglican

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    And the UMC just failed to pass the gay marriage proposal by a few percentage points-apparently due to some African delegates.:cry:
     
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  5. bwallac2335

    bwallac2335 Well-Known Member

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    That is true but even then thanks to the African Delegates the UMC retains the truth on homosexual marriage
     
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  6. PDL

    PDL Well-Known Member Anglican

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    It is my understanding that they did recently attempt to change their teachings and that the decision was only averted by a narrow margin. There have been reports of congregations expressing their displeasure that homosexuality was not regarded more liberally. I think it would be difficult to claim to be conservative with these facts in mind.
     
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  7. Fr. Brench

    Fr. Brench Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Besides, there are a number of more foundation theological issues that are compromised before getting to the homosexuality debate. The UMC may be "conservative" on paper, on that one issue, but your typical UMC member is still practically a universalist.
     
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  8. Liturgyworks

    Liturgyworks Well-Known Member Anglican

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    In addition to the “Seven Sisters”, there are a few other smaller churches which are fellow travellers, such as the Moravians, whose doctrinal corruption has been orchestrated by a secretive cabal of liberal clergy the laity of that historically very pious and orthodox church refer to as the Moravian Mafia.

    On the other side of the coin, you have the Christian Church / Disciples of Christ, originating from the Stone - Campbell movement, which I greatly dislike, and the liberal Mennonite denominations, which are bewildering next to their Amish counterparts.
     
  9. Ananias

    Ananias Well-Known Member Anglican

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    I am resurrecting this thread specifically because of the SBC article on the "seven sisters" (which is a dead link now, btw). I was in the SBC for a number of years, so I have some insight on this.

    The SBC itself could be classed among the "sisters" these days. It's still popularly thought of as the most doctrinally-conservative American denomination, yet for years it's been trending institutionally leftward, particularly in the adoption of the Marxist social justice/liberation theology ideas. Al Mohler's guidance of the SBC for the past several years has become increasingly suspect, and SBC pastors like Russell Moore have been slowly embracing "progressive Christianity" in an effort to remain relevant (especially among African-American Baptist congregations). I know of many former SBC churches that have disaffiliated with the SBC due to their leftward drift (and general mismanagement). Time will tell if the SBC can stop the bleeding.

    Many SBC churches have also fallen prey to the "prosperity gospel" nonsense and the hyper-charismatics (some Baptist churches might as well rebrand and call themselves Pentecostals).

    Schism is in the air over progressive/orthodox divide. The UMC will almost certainly schism next year over the issue of homosexuality (they would have done so this year but for COVID-19). The Anglican and Episcopal world is still sorting itself into its respective orthodox and progressive spheres. The Anglo-Catholics will eventually migrate completely into the Roman Catholic church. Baptists are feeling the strains. The Presbyterians already split: PCUSA for the progressives, PCA for the conservatives. I suspect in time that the progressive churches will wither and die (COVID-19 is accelerating this process) while the orthodox branches carry on.

    I really doubt the CofE or TEC will even exist as religious institutions by 2050 or so; if they do survive, it will be as real-estate and pension trusts and not as churches militant.

    I have high hopes for ACNA; once they get their organizational and doctrinal structure sorted out, and start doing more evangelism, ACNA would be a great fit for a lot of younger Christians who want a more liturgical, historically-grounded church in the Reformed tradition. ACNA has its problems, to be sure, but it is led by wise people who absolutely have the correct priorities as far as I can tell. I wish some of the reforms would move faster, but in this as in so much else patience is necessary.

    I liken our age to a fire within a Christian forest: a disaster, but also a necessary process to clear out the dead wood. The remnant will be better and stronger for it. This sort of thing has happened before in Christianity (the heresies of the first and second centuries, the Great Schism between East and West, the Protestant Reformation).
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2020
  10. anglican74

    anglican74 Well-Known Member Anglican

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    I saw an article from David Virtue which said essentially the same thing, using data from TEC themselves,
    https://virtueonline.org/2019-paroc...nued-decline-and-dire-future-episcopal-church

    Praise be to God... He shall always remain undefeated!
     
  11. bwallac2335

    bwallac2335 Well-Known Member

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    We should point out that the ACNA is reformed in that we reformed from the abuses of Medieval Catholicism. We are not the TULIP kind of reformed.
     
  12. Lowly Layman

    Lowly Layman Well-Known Member

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    I witnessed a number of battles that eventually ended up in court in my diocese several years back. The fights were over parishes wishing to either leave the denomination or receive alternate episcopal oversight due to TEC's and the then bishop's denial of catholic teaching on sodomy and the sacrament of marriage. In all but one case that I know of, the parishes were defeated and were forced to exit not only the denomination but their church property as well. I believe I have periviously shared the following words of encouragement from St. Athanasius, given to his followers during a similar time when the powers-that-be had been seduced by the popular heresy of the day (that is, Arianism) and orthodox believers were forced into exile, and I do so again here:

    May God comfort you. I know moreover that not only this thing saddens you, but also the fact that while others have obtained the churches by violence, you are meanwhile cast out from your places. For they hold the places, but you the Apostolic Faith. They are, it is true, in the places, but outside of the true Faith; while you are outside the places indeed, but the Faith, within you. Let us consider whether is the greater, the place or the Faith. Clearly the true Faith. Who then has lost more, or who possesses more? He who holds the place, or he who holds the Faith? Good indeed is the place, when the Apostolic Faith is preached there, holy is it if the Holy One dwell there...

    But ye are blessed, who by faith are in the Church, dwell upon the foundations of the faith, and have full satisfaction, even the highest degree of faith which remains among you unshaken. For it has come down to you from Apostolic tradition, and frequently has accursed envy wished to unsettle it, but has not been able. On the contrary, they have rather been cut off by their attempts to do so. For this is it that is written, ‘Thou art the Son of the Living God,’ Peter confessing it by revelation of the Father, and being told, ‘Blessed art thou Simon Barjona, for flesh and blood did not reveal it to thee,’ but ‘My Father Who is in heaven,’ and the rest. No one therefore will ever prevail against your Faith, most beloved brethren. For if ever God shall give back the churches (for we think He will) yet without such restoration of the churches the Faith is sufficient for us. And lest, speaking without the Scriptures, I should [seem to] speak too strongly, it is well to bring you to the testimony of Scriptures, for recollect that the Temple indeed was at Jerusalem; the Temple was not deserted, aliens had invaded it, whence also the Temple being at Jerusalem, those exiles went down to Babylon by the judgment of God, who was proving, or rather correcting them; while manifesting to them in their ignorance punishment [by means] of blood-thirsty enemies. And aliens indeed had held the Place, but knew not the Lord of the Place, while in that He neither gave answer nor spoke, they were deserted by the truth. What profit then is the Place to them?


    For behold they that hold the Place are charged by them that love God with making it a den of thieves, and with madly making the Holy Place a house of merchandise, and a house of judicial business for themselves to whom it was unlawful to enter there. For this and worse than this is what we have heard, most beloved, from those who are come from thence. However really, then, they seem to hold the church, so much the more truly are they cast out. And they think themselves to be within the truth, but are exiled, and in captivity, and [gain] no advantage by the church alone. For the truth of things is judged…
    I repeat this here not only to offer comfort to those who feel similarly exiled by church es that have abandoned a number of sacred truths handed down to us from the Apostles, but also to point out that just as in St. Athasius' time, the Church eventually found her way back to the true faith and the ship was righted, I believe She will again, with God's help. So do not be overcome by the prison of the present moment. Truth will prevail and on those who dwell in darkness a great light will once again shine.
     
  13. Ananias

    Ananias Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Well...some of us are! ;)

    Article XVII of the 39 Articles could have been written by John Calvin himself.
     
  14. bwallac2335

    bwallac2335 Well-Known Member

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    Except it could not have. You seem like a nice guy but TULIP is barely is not of the church fathers, is not found within the first 500 years or even the first 1500 years of the church and is an innovation. We are preordained because God foreknew our actions to belief.
     
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  15. bwallac2335

    bwallac2335 Well-Known Member

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    Should read TULIB is not of the church fathers,
     
  16. Stalwart

    Stalwart Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Not really, it is basically identical with the Lutheran doctrine on this. Calvin actually resembled the doctrine of Thomas Aquinas, in that they both taught the doctrine of double predestination (so much so, that 16th century RCC apologists were scandalized about their Thomas being indistinguishable from Calvin). Anglicans and Lutherans charted a new course in the doctrine of predestination, which was much older in Church history, returning into alignment with Scripture and with St. Augustine on this issue, and much less aligned with Thomas and Calvin.
     
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  17. bwallac2335

    bwallac2335 Well-Known Member

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    In this Anglican's and Lutherans came back into line with the EO's.
     
  18. Ananias

    Ananias Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Well, I was being a bit facetious. I don't consider myself a "Calvinist" in any deep theological sense. I am definitely not Arminian or Universalist in outlook, and in some circles that defaults me to the Calvin side of things. I'd say that my theology is basically Puritan, which in some circles makes me a Calvinist. I find that John Calvin gets both the credit and the blame for a lot of notions he never actually affirmed, though. "Calvinism" is a very imprecise way of describing strict Reformed theology. TULIP is a case study of letting yourself be defined by your opponents. It obscures more than it clarifies.
     
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  19. bwallac2335

    bwallac2335 Well-Known Member

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    I am not familiar with Puritan theology. Can you explain it a bit?
     
  20. Ananias

    Ananias Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Well...I'll try. It's a big topic, and I'm no expert. For a thorough treatment I'd point you to Beeke's "Puritan Theology".

    If you view reformation-era theology as a spectrum with strict Calvinism (big-R Reformed) at one end and Roman Catholic on the other, with traditional CofE Anglicanism in the middle, then Puritans would be about halfway between the CofE and the strict Calvinists. Puritans thought that the English church hadn't reformed enough, and needed to move further away from the trappings and doctrines of Roman Catholicism. But they were not separatists; most stayed within the church. (Those who did separate eventually fled England and came to the New World -- we know them as the Pilgrims. The Puritans came a bit later, and were more successful.)

    Puritans were very practical and real-world about their religious faith -- to them, it was something you lived out, every day and every way. It wasn't (only) an intellectual construct. It was reformed Christianity, applied. Good Puritans were strivers after truth and Godly life in all respects: individually, in the family, in their civic and business dealings, everywhere. They were not rugged individualists a rule, but were very much family, group, and church centered. They were austere in terms of church order and service and iconography, but they loved music.

    The caricature of them as dour, harsh, and unforgiving is false, and is mostly due to later anti-Puritan sentiments during the 1800's (see Nathaniel Hawthorne's "Scarlet Letter" and note when it was published). They could be all those things, certainly, but no more or less so than their Christian cousins elsewhere. (Cotton Mather gave them all a bad name, really. He was definitely a lesser son of a greater father.)

    Puritans in America were a different breed than their cousins in the old world as well...partly because they lost touch with their CofE episcopal structures and formative influences. American Puritanism is a different animal in a lot of ways than English Puritanism.

    But Puritans also had a variety of religious views. There never was just one "Puritan" theology to which all subscribed. They were Anglicans of the low church bent, who wanted to "purify" the faith and evangelistically carry it out of the land of its birth. The movement really only lasted for a century or so (a bit longer in the Americas than it did in England).
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2020
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