Is this attitude Moral?

Discussion in 'The Commons' started by Tiffy, Aug 23, 2018.

  1. Tiffy

    Tiffy Well-Known Member

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    You respond to an ad promising release from boredom with a 'Yes Please'. There are no details of the product though. On arrival it's a jigsaw puzzle with pieces missing. Do you: (1) Want a refund. (2) Accept that you can't change you mind now, having previously voted 'Yes'.

    This is what we have essentially with Brexit except the company which put up the ad, sold us the promise and sent us the 'package' does not give refunds, neither does it answer mail telephone or text messages of complaint.

    It just says "You voted, so put up with it, and PAY".

    Is this attitude morally defencible?
     
  2. anglican74

    anglican74 Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Did you vote Yes on Brexit?
     
  3. Magistos

    Magistos Active Member Anglican

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    I'm not sure it's morally defensible, but I also wonder what can be done.

    Another vote? You can't keep voting onnsomeghon until you get the result you want!

    That said, it's been proven that all actors were not above board . (In POLITICS? SHOCK!)
     
  4. Tiffy

    Tiffy Well-Known Member

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    I wouldn't have been suckered by such an uninformative ad. :laugh: But since I am going to have my EU citizenship revoked by a government I have never voted for anyhow, I feel considerably miffed, that their complaints dept. (i.e. possibility of a referendum on accepting or rejecting "Their EU Deal"), is so utterly deaf and illiterate that they won't listen to reason. :deadhorse:
     
  5. Tiffy

    Tiffy Well-Known Member

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    We do. Every 5 years. I think you do too. In our case it used to be as often as we got really P.O'd. with their performance so they suffered a vote of no confidence in The House. Now we are stuck with them for 5 years at a time, (no refunds). :no: :wallbash:

    This present lot couldn't negotiate a lunch break in a sandwich factory.
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2018
  6. anglican74

    anglican74 Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Wait, but... if you didn't vote for it, then you weren't suckered, so there is no moral dilemma is there?

    And whilst millions of Britons did vote for it, the government is performing a Brexit, so there is no moral dilemma there either! If anything those voters want to go harder Brexit, more, tougher, than the current Government is delivering

    So I don't see what the moral dilemma is... You didn't vote for it, so you aren't being denied... The people who voted for it are getting what they wanted... If there is a moral problem, it's that the people were promised a harder Brexit than they're getting, which would be fraudulent and demoralizing to the voters
     
  7. Tiffy

    Tiffy Well-Known Member

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    You must be a Trump Supporter. :laugh: Talk about moral problems not existing. :biglaugh:
     
  8. anglican74

    anglican74 Well-Known Member Anglican

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    I haven't stated my view at all... just trying to understand where the moral dilemma is, because if you voted for Brexit but it wasn't the bill of goods you voted for, we could have a serious discussion, but that doesn't seem to be the case here... Perhaps I'm not reading the situation correctly?
     
  9. Botolph

    Botolph Well-Known Member

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    The morality issues faced in western democracies should not, in my humble opinion, be laid at the feet of the voters.

    We are called to make informed decisions. Based on the information presented to us, and the credibility (or not) of those delivering the information we make what is supposed to be an informed choice.

    As it transpires this can some time go wrong because we have been misled, or made a decision based on a partial presentation of the issues. I believe that the complexity of this has grown significantly since the media has taken on 'player status' in the game, so whilst we acknowledge that impartiality is a laudable goal, there is precious little of it about. Much of what is presented to us as news these days is indeed opinion, or worse still newsertainment.

    I think one of the problems we also have is that we do not study history enough. Brexit, is in some senses just another chapter in the story of the relationship between England and the continent. This story was played out in Henry VIII's time, in The Norman Conquest, in the Danish Conquest, in the Augustinian Mission, in the Roman Conquest. This is not chapter 1 by any stretch of the imagination.

    I think the one thing we have all learned is that everytime the government promises to save us money, we all hold our wallets just a we bit tighter because we know that every $1.00 they save us will cost us at least $1.10.

    I believe that for the most part we act on the basis of the information that we have available, and sadly a lot of that is half baked or wrong, however our dilemma is that we do not what what we do not know.
     
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  10. Tiffy

    Tiffy Well-Known Member

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    Yes, perhaps you are not. Let me inform you what is going on.

    We have almost an entire nation over here who are not satisfied with the product that is finally arriving on their doorstep. We have a government that still cannot tell us exactly what Brexit will be like, or what preparations they have made for a no deal exit, except for meaningless slogans such as, "Brexit means Brexit". Whatever that is supposed to mean. We have an electorate that has swung considerably in the 'Remain' direction after seeing the government's incompetent handling of negotiations, meaning that there are now approximately 60/40 % against the idea of Brexit at all, the hard line political purveyors of Brexit are running out of convincing lies to tell the public, their previous lies having been laid bare for all to see, and still the government refuses to consult the people on whatever cobbled together abortion of a deal, or 'still birth' of a no deal, they may finally 'deliver' and foist upon us. Without such as a 'by your leave' or 'do you really want this'?

    If a double glazing salesman lied about his product, couldn't be bothered to install it properly and then seriously hiked up the price, you would be entitled under law to refuse to pay and sue him for the expense he has caused you by his Snake Oil Salesman, hard sell techniques.

    Right?

    That's what it is all about.
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2018
  11. anglican74

    anglican74 Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Instead of speaking for the entire nation as if it had a single point of view on the issue, we know that Brexit was highly contested, so, the ones who voted against Brexit (such as yourself), have you been defrauded in this process?
     
  12. Tiffy

    Tiffy Well-Known Member

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    Considerably so, considering the lies that were told and the way that Facebook in cahoots with Cambridge Ananlytica and confederate companies influenced the vote by defrauding the electorate and illegally dealing in millions of people's personal data, so that they could target the Brexit campaigns propaganda more effectively via the media, to each personal profile.

    Ever wondered how it is that when you buy something on the net, you constantly start getting ads for the same sort of stuff popping up wherever you go after that. That's 'targeting'.

    Add to that the illegal overspending by several of the Leave campaigns, and the immigration scare mongering and racist propaganda used, the electorate have very good reason to feel 'defrauded'.
     
  13. anglican74

    anglican74 Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Dear chum, you are not "the electorate", you are just you, "Tiffy"

    I restate my question again:
     
  14. Tiffy

    Tiffy Well-Known Member

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    The electoral process has been defrauded. The fact that the Brexit campaign has been, on a number of counts, shown to be fraudulent, means that the entire British electorate has been defrauded. Some don't mind, (in fact some were perhaps deliberately implicit), most are indignant, especially when it is claimed that less than a 3.5% majority, in a fraudulent campaign was, "The will of the people". It was actually nothing of the kind. It was only the will of less than 54% of the approx. 70% of the electorate that actually voted. Not by any means 'The People'. And those most affected were not allowed to vote.

    I, as an individual have just one vote. As an individual I was theoretically not defrauded, because supposedly I did not 'buy' the fraudulently advertised 'product'. That however does not logically support the notion that 'no fraud has taken place'. Only that I personally did not fall victim to that fraud.

    But here's the thing. I AM a victim of that fraud. I as an individual, am one of the electorate. As a member of the electorate I, along with the rest of the electorate were defrauded, by various organizations and high rolling sponsors, who wanted to influence the result.

    They succeeded. The result was probably influenced, (it cost them enough to do it). We were defrauded. A Referendum on the final deal is required if justice is to be seen to be done.
     
  15. anglican74

    anglican74 Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Unless the fraud related to the process of how the vote was cast, I don't see how electorate "as a category" can be referenced here... What do you (who voted to Remain ) have in common with those who voted to Leave? You two are mortal enemies on the question, and no common descriptor such as "the electorate" covers you both... I want you to show me how you, and the entire Remain part of the electorate, were defrauded in any way


    Oh... So then why do you keep saying "we"
     
  16. Tiffy

    Tiffy Well-Known Member

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    So why do you imply there was no fraud involved?

    You neglect to mention the defrauding of the nearly 54% of the electorate who were promised Brexit meant £350,000,000 per week extra for The NHS. That lie was deflated with a loud fart within weeks of the referendum result, when the FACTS became known. Now all the other Brexit lies are being exposed, it is the Brexit voters who are feeling miffed. Half because they are not getting a ENOUGH Brexit and the other half because they now know what Brexit will mean and they are getting TOO MUCH Brexit at too high a price. What they were promised was all a pack of lies. The 47% who didn't want it in the first place are obviously miffed, especially if they are going to lose their jobs and watch the UK economy going down the tubes because of others blind ignorant stupidity.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 28, 2018
  17. Scottish Knight

    Scottish Knight Well-Known Member

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    The remain campaign contested that particular figure as soon as it came out before the vote. Anyone who was interested could read or listen to the arguments and counter arguments being made and make up their own minds on the matter. For balance the remain campaign has also been accused of being less than truthful in its predictions.







    https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/792928/Remainers-Project-Fear-Brexit-campaign-remain
     
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  18. Tiffy

    Tiffy Well-Known Member

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    Both campaigns were suspect in the way 'truth' was presented to the electorate. Democracy is threatened by 'fake news', 'lies', 'alternative truth', or whatever kind of dishonest propaganda that distorts the rational opinions of voters, causing them to adopt attitudes based upon 'irrational fear' rather than 'knowledge of the facts'. That is why the result of the Brexit Referendum is now untrustworthy as a true reflection of the current opinion of the electorate, now that many of the lies, false predictions and naively over optimistic forecasts have been exposed.

    And the Daily express, Daily Mail and Sun were complicit, along with other mass media in actually sowing those false fears into the fertile imaginations of their readers.
     
  19. Scottish Knight

    Scottish Knight Well-Known Member

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    Dishonest propaganda has been around for centuries. It shouldn't be but I can't picture it ever being completely rid in this imperfect world. I think it's too far to say the referendum result is not valid because of this as both sides offered counter points to balance and call out false or partial information. There were also neutral fact finding websites which broke down and explained some of the statistics and figures being bandied about. There was enough information for those interested enough to analyse the arguments and make an informed decision.
     
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  20. anglican74

    anglican74 Well-Known Member Anglican

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    I agree that those who voted for Brexit aren’t getting enough of what they voted for... yet I still don’t see how those who voted AGAINST it are not getting what they voted against

    Are you saying that Brexit is attractive now, and those who voted against it were “defrauded” and would’ve now voted for it “if they only knew”?