Huge theological challenge at my (Episcopalian) parish

Discussion in 'Navigating Through Church Life' started by Jeff F, Feb 4, 2013.

  1. Jeff F

    Jeff F Well-Known Member

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    Well, I've been back in the ECUSA a little over a month now, and I have my first serious challenge of doctrine coming up in a small book study at our parish.

    I suspected my first encounter would be somehow related to gay rights/marriage/ordination, but it appears I'm being challenged in even deeper waters. The book is "Misquoting Jesus" by Princeton Theologian Bart Ehrman, and just reading the introduction for the first discussion has my head spinning at the assumptions this supposed scholar is making.

    If you're not familiar with his books (very similar in approach to John Dominick Crossen and the Jesus Seminar), he claims that scribal errors over the centuries have totally distorted the scriptures we now hold, and asserts that there is no way that what we have are "inspired".

    Yesterday I spoke with the retired 'Priest' assisting our Parish, and she asked how I liked the book. Calmly and rationally I took it apart six ways to Sunday, but when I mentioned the validity of the creeds, she blurted out "well, I don't believe the creed"! Then she proceeded to explain that she didn't believe in the virgin birth, Hell or Heaven!

    God has given me my first lost soul...........pray for me gents!:blush:

    Jeff
     
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  2. Symphorian

    Symphorian Well-Known Member

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    Over the years I've come across a few Priests who've admitted that they don't believe in the virgin birth, hell, heaven, resurrection etc...even God. I found it quite shocking at first. When I was 16 or 17 our then Rector admitted to me that he didn't believe in the resurrection, and that the rest of it was probably a load of nonsense too! It makes me wonder what our clergy do actually believe and why they do the job if they don't.

    In the UK there's an organization called the Sea of Faith Network which has such clergy as members.

    http://www.sofn.org.uk/index.html
     
  3. Lowly Layman

    Lowly Layman Well-Known Member

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    Do they pass out complimentary millstones before they cast those priests into the Sea of Faith? :p
    Unbelievable...just unbelievable
     
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  4. The Dark Knight

    The Dark Knight Active Member

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    I will pray for you, Jeff. It seems like this stuff is becoming more and more common. It's annoying and disturbing.
     
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  5. Jeff F

    Jeff F Well-Known Member

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    Since that discussion yesterday, my mind has been filled with theoretical questions for this troubled Priest. Not believing in Heaven nor Hell, she couldn't possibly believe in the resurrection, so does she plan to take Lent/Easter off and attend a Sadducee sect of Judaism? The hypocrisy of her belief (lack of) is mind numbing, understanding that every service/rite/sacrament of the church is founded in beliefs that she doesn't hold, yet she's there officiating and collecting her pension check. I'm praying how to address this with our Parish Priest, understanding this woman is a long time friend of our family and former student under my Uncle in the 70's. Keep praying brothers!

    Jeff
     
  6. Lowly Layman

    Lowly Layman Well-Known Member

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    Sound like this priest is more on the order of Spong than Melchizadek. I will pray for you and for her conversion to orthodoxy.
     
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  7. Symphorian

    Symphorian Well-Known Member

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    Indeed. And money does seem to have been the end means in some of the instances I've come across.
     
  8. Toma

    Toma Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Jeff, this is infuriating, but also puts great pity in my heart. How can they lead the worship of a God whose claims & promises are defunct, or hoaxes? The only way I'd deal with it is schedule a meeting with these people to outright debate with them. Elders they may be, retired they may be, but society's respect & well-mannered behaviour is not to be considered when a soul is in danger. Being our brothers & sisters in Christ by Baptism, they are still part of us even if they don't want to acknowledge it. Our duty rests in smacking the devilishness out of their hearts! The Bible is the holy word of God, and eminently believable!

    The perplexity here is indeed why these apostates would want to be priests. There can't be buckets of money flowing in? It must be a 1970s attitude, which encouraged Social Justice as the primary mode of a Christian's operation. As C.S. Lewis warned, "Christian" has become an adjective for a very nice, caring sort of person - of any belief system.
     
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  9. Jeff F

    Jeff F Well-Known Member

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    One interesting development. I received a phone call this morning from the Priest in question (I have been assisting her adult daughter with medical transportation and living arrangements related to her serious health issues), and in tears she said "I thank God for putting you in my life". May God give me the guidance and wisdom to bring her back to scripture.

    Jeff
     
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  10. kestrel

    kestrel Member

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    Well call me righteous holier-than-you fanatic, but she isn't a Christian
     
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  11. Toma

    Toma Well-Known Member Anglican

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    This may be your chance. Go for it, sir! :D
     
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  12. Jeff F

    Jeff F Well-Known Member

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    Update...........The discussion was civil and somewhat scholarly with a mix of Clergy, seminarians, and parishners, and most had only read Ehrman's book, but knew nothing of his recent renouncement of his faith and new claim of being "Agnostic". The discussion mainly revolved around certain groups such as the Apostolic, Baptists, and non instrumental Church of Christ folks who use a single verse of scripture to define salvation, but they still seemed to be hung up on minute, insignificant details that didn't line up in the Gospels. I gave a very simple parable that seemed to hit home with most. When a Police Officer comes to a home where an assault has just occurred, if the witnesses give a different clothing color description of the suspect, does that mean the crime didn't happen? I also pointed out that we as Episcopalians have a unique blessing, having the creeds, councils, and 1300 years of scholarly tradition to help us guide and interpret scripture. Please keep praying for me, the battle is far from over!

    Jeff
     
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  13. Jeff F

    Jeff F Well-Known Member

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    He doesn't mention it in his books, but I read the transcript of his recent interview in the Christian Science Monitor. He claims that there isn't enough "accurate" information in scripture to know anything for certain, so he looks for the best in all religions. I'm reminded of the verse which says "Always learning, but unable to come to a knowledge of the truth".

    Jeff
     
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  14. kestrel

    kestrel Member

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    Well, I do feel that negating almost everything the Bible says, or that "it's all just Theology" is a steep slope down into agnosticism.

    Yesterday, as I was bugging my niece on her homework, I was struck by what her Religious Education teacher had asked her to do. Namely, a prayer both asking and thanking God for salvation drawing a parallel between God's intervention on history and God's intervention on our personal life. And she came to ask me something like:

    -- But he's always saying "this thing [in the Bible] never happened", "that is _just_ Theology", "this is disproved", so what did God actually do in history?

    That's when I forgot she's RC and stomped on ecumenical courtesy to state bluntly that yes there are certain parts of the Bible which are obviously not to be taken as historical events (like God having wings, for example), but that for many other things these "experts" are simply guessing on guesses, distrusting the ancient wisdom just because it happened to be ancient.

    And I feel pretty great about it.
     
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  15. Jeff F

    Jeff F Well-Known Member

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    Update #2.............In yet another amazing phone call from this Priest, she stated that she was beginning to be worried at some of her conclusions as of late, and that she had "lost her spirituality", she went on to say that she was seeking professional counseling and guidance from an elder Priest in our diocese. The amazing thing here is that I had not challenged or questioned any of her assertions, so this is a direct result of the Holy spirit working in her life. Your prayers are working brothers!

    Jeff
     
  16. Peteprint

    Peteprint Well-Known Member Anglican

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    I will certainly pray for this woman. It appears you are having a good effect on her.
     
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