Exactly to a Muslim Allah is God to a Christian God is God consisting of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, I am not talking about the Syriac Christian meaning of 'Allah' I was talking about what the Muslim mean by Allah. To a Muslim their truth is the truth and therefore is true to them in their own way. How do you come to the conclusion that someone denies Christianity because they are tolerant of other cultures belief systems?Actually that is what our Saviour Jesus meant by commanding us to love our neighbour as yourself. I have no idea what you mean by a slippery slope it is simply a fact if I believe something to be true then it is my truth, if you believe something to be true then it is your truth. Getting back to asking the saints to pray for us, Anna pointed out many passages in scripture that pointed to praying for one and another but still you don't see her truth. Do you get yet what I am talking about brother, because I am slowly running out of ways to explain it to you?
absolutely! However 250AD is not quite as ancient as Christianity itself,. A lot can change in 250 years - think back to what times were like 250 years from us...
That's great your eyes were healed historyb. Certainly it's a temptation to pray to them - just to see if it works. I have indeed thought like this before. But really this type of thinking shows a lack of faith in God. I have given this a thought and there are several reasons about why you were healed. Bottom line many things God has forbidden but it has nothing to do whether it works or not. Perhaps it is possible to contact the dead, or to tell the future but the Bible forbids it. So praise God your eyes were healed but because it appears to work is not reason enough for me to accept it
Great questions! I will try to answer these: "I prayed a novena to St ____ and my illness was cured." I can't be responsible for the beliefs or what may amount to poor catechism in some instances, but I don't "pray" to the Saints in the same way I pray to God. I've never asked a Saint to forgive me of my sins, to give me strength, or to directly give me or provide me with anything else. I simply ask the Saints to pray for me....end of story. As Martin Luther has pointed out, honoring the Saints is honoring God, many of us agree and feel the same way as Luther when asking for intercession. EDIT: For example, St. Christopher is the patron Saint of travel. When going on a long or potentially dangerous trip, I always ask God to watch over me and my family. That said, what is wrong with asking St. Christopher to pray that I have a safe trip as well? Some will say that we are not respecting God's all encompassing power...not true! As I said earlier, we all ask others to pray for us and nobody believes that that is not honoring God's power. "I prayed a novena to St ____ and my illness was cured." Again, I can't be responsible for everyone's belief and practice in this matter, there may be those who do exactly what you say. However, when a Baptist pastor suggests that gays should be put in concentration camps, do we say that all Baptists must be in the same error as this pastor? Of course not! i've never credited a Saint for healing me. Do I think it's possible that petitioning a Saint to pray for us can help what ails us, of course I do. That said, I give ALL glory to God and i'm thankful for those that pray for me. However, I acknowledge that this practice should NEVER be required NOR is it for everyone. I would never ask a Christian to do something that would go against his/her conscience. That said, i'd ask that they respect my beliefs and my personal devotions as well. That said, I will say that it's sad that the Blessed Virgin Mary has become "just some women" in many protestant circles. I'm not saying that everyone feels this way, but with a majority of my Christian life spent in protestant churches, it certainly feels that way. 2) Where is the Glory to God whom actually cured you? St _____ did not cure you Ask I mentioned earlier, I give all glory to God and, like Luther, I believe I honor God by honoring the Saints and the examples of Christian piety that came before me. You don't have to agree or like any of this, but I hope this clears up some misconceptions. I feel that many of the disagreements in regards to worship comes from stereotyping and misconception. It's important to have threads like this, but when one of us offers an answer, I hope that it is taken to heart and really thought about. I keep seeing the same misconceptions over and over again.
Are you using Luther to get sympathy from the evangelicals, Sean? It won't work, you dastardly fellow! I repent of having framed my opinions in the form of dictatorial assertions so far, rather than charitable questions. One thing that may be argued in favour of a negation of the Old Testament commandment not to contact the departed, is the fact that Christ threw down the prison doors of the grave, the place where none could hear or speak praise of God (Psalm 88). Since Christ did this, in addition to flinging the gates of Heaven wide open, can we say that the O.T. injunction does not apply? Only one thing do I demand: that prayer to the saints not be accounted part of the public divine liturgy, even if allowed to private prayer. The divine service of the Church is solely for the praise of God, and prayers to any other beings just aren't proper in that setting. I hope we can be unanimous in this.
Not at all Consular, just trying to give examples from people who many on here respect and hold up highly. Regardless of what we think of what Luther said, I believe he has a valid point (even if some disagree). Luther prayed the rosary until his death, many may not like it or agree with the practice, but there it is nevertheless. We can't pick and choose only what we like. Catholics and protestants do a lot of cherry-picking in regards to Luther. If Luther were alive today, i'm not convinced he'd be a modern day Lutheran. If a parish is Anglo-Catholic and has varying degrees of Marian devotion, I see nothing wrong with it. My feeling is that if you don't like that practice, attend a different parish. Afterall, many see these practices as praising and honoring God (even if you don't agree, we should always respect the beliefs of others). I would never go into a parish and demand that they abandon all that they believe to cater to my worship and beliefs.
Just a few brief points, since I do hate contention deep down: 1. Rev. James White is quite adamant that Luther abandoned Marian veneration and the rosary later. I'll have to find the book-source. 2. The only reason our lot brings the issue up is because we see something (potentially) wrong with it. We take an approach that is common-sense, if worldly: praising one person who is not God, is not praising God. It honestly depends what is meant by "Marian devotion", and how far it goes. We should be devoted to God, the protestant says. 3. None of us ask you or historyb or Adam Warlock to cater to "my" worship & beliefs or "our" worship & beliefs, but rather the true worship and beliefs, because it is joyous and good and meet and just to lift up our hearts to the LORD. Your party makes this out to be an indifferent matter of opinion, so we see catering to opinion on that side, not on this side. This has nothing of opinion or position about it, but of fact and truth. That's where we're coming from anyway; we are too scrupulous about religion toward God to allow for these great matters of prayer and intercession to be just legitimate churchmanship or "positions"; it's far bigger than our petty wishes. We're seeking to find out whether every single practice conforms to God's will.
Consular, I want to tell you that I greatly admire the fact that you have always read the entirety of my posts and respond to all of my points, even on the tough and controversial points, you still respond and offer your thoughts. Thank you for that! 1. Whether Luther did or did not pray the rosary until his death is not the real point. I doubt anybody could definitively prove it one way or the other, however, I think most of us can agree that Luther held the Blessed Virgin up higher than many modern day protestants do. The points that Luther made are still valid and make one think. I think we can also agree that modern day Lutherans are far more protestant than Martin Luther ever was. However, this topic is a bit off track and is mostly speculation, so i'll stop there. 2. I believe that honoring the Saints is honoring God. Afterall, honoring and obeying our own father and mother is honoring God is it not? 3. I think that we have the true worship and beliefs (you, me, Adam, and all the others). Like Gordon has pointed out again and again, we must not get lost in the details of it all.
And I thank you for not getting angry and uncharitable when confronted with my often belligerent-looking posts. There's no mode by which to communicate tone on the internet, sadly. 1. What do you mean, that Luther "held the Blessed Virgin up higher" than many protestants do? A Protestant Anglican who denies Theotokos denies Ephesus. Were you referring only to Luther's prayers to Mary? It is not irrelevant, seeing how Luther was one of the catalysts for breaking the Roman hold. His views and ideas are important. 2. Indeed, to follow the 5th commandment is to honour God's express orders - but honouring the saints is not an express commandment, so the comparison is not entirely fitting. Either way, how is honouring a man, honouring God? Peter taught us certainly not to kneel when addressing him, for "I am but a man". At the least, you should only sit or stand when addressing the saints. What else? How far is this honour and devotion to go until you say "no more"? 3. This is the very essence of the whole debate, in my opinion. Whether it is merely an indifferent non-essential matter, subordinate to the 10 Commandments, the 2 Great Commandments of the Law, or is an urgent thing we must do or must not do - that possible distinction is what makes this subject so important. If you were commiting a sin/blasphemy by doing X, wouldn't you want to know that, and then cease doing X? Not every issue can be brushed aside with tolerance. God will not be mocked, etc.
1. Yes his views and ideas are important, but we must take his life together and as a whole and not cherry pick only the ideas and views we like. Modern day Lutherans claim that Luther was still "stuck" in his time and would have threw off all his "superstitions" if only given more time. To me, that is speculation and nothing more. Modern day Catholics claimed he would be back in the Roman Church if he were around today. Again, this is all idle speculation, but it goes shows that who Luther really was is not completely known. In regards to Mary and other Saints, their examples are rarely mentioned in many protestant circles. Heck, how often is the trinity honored in many protestant circles? It has become all about Jesus and only Jesus in many ways. I feel like i've learned a lot of about Christianity since becoming an Anglican, especially when it comes to examples of the past. 2 & 3: There are many ways in which to honor God, which are not 100% direct praise and worship. We honor God when we resist temptation, when we help at the food bank, when we re-paint the walls of the church, when we study the bible, when we do our daily devotions, when we do something charitable, when we show others respect, or when we help an old lady across the street. Many things we do, we do to honor God are not direct praise and worship. In my estimation, there are just so many ways to honor God than only offering direct praise and worship. Do you have to volunteer to help paint the walls of the church to be a good Christian? No, of course not. Same goes for honoring the Saints, some of us choose to honor them in a different way than others do. There is nothing wrong, in my eyes, with a bit of healthy diversity in Christianity. There has never been a time when every parish or church worshiped or believed in the 100% exact same way and this goes all the way back to the beginning.
Sean, if you're going to example "Christians" who deny or ignore the very mystery of the Trinity, you can hardly example the same people as representative of the adjective "Protestant" in the Marian context. A true protestant believes in the Trinity; those who do not are not "protestants", but unitarians, universalists, deists, or Arians. We can hardly quote them for any doctrine related to Christianity, nor can we quote them as Luther's spiritual offspring! Now we get to the crux of the matter... The ways to honour God are indeed manifold - infinite, really, if we put our hearts into all things with faith. All things are made by Him for His glory and for our stewardship over, love of, and enjoyment in them. There are qualifications, however. Would you say that it honours God to call Christ is only human, or only divine? These are long-standing Christian opinions, which were widely-held at times, often by a majority. Should we just respect them while they dishonour the truth of our Lord & Saviour?! The mystery of iniquity works even now, said Paul in the apostolic days. Not every opinion or variation is a laudable variation, surely? If that were so, there'd be no Creeds, nor even a common Catholic faith. Do you understand our concern? :think:
All of that is true Consular and I believe that nearly all protestant traditions believe in the trinity. However, I spent several years in an SBC and I can never remember the word "trinity" ever being mentioned, everything was Jesus and the bible. I certainly believe that they believed in the trinity, but I feel like they had neglected the Father and Holy Spirit in many instances. My point was to show that all is not well in many protestant circles like many seem to think and that many examples of Christian peity are neglected in many of these circles. I've learned so much about the past that I would have never learned otherwise in certain protestant circles. No, not every opinion is laudable and that which contradicts God's will should be pointed out. Lord knows that many of us have spent many hours pointing out what is wrong in TEC and around the communion. That said, honoring the Saints and asking for intercession has not been shown to contradict scipture, tradition, or reason. If someone can show me that it does, I will sincerely re-evaluate my beliefs, but it has not been shown. Arianism and universalism is clearly in violation of these three measures, so the comparision doesn't work unless it can be shown that Saintly intercession violates God's will. The burden of proof is on those who thinks the practice violates God's will. Also, God understands our limitations and that how we are brought up or how we think can be limitations as well. Perhaps praying the rosary is very important and near and dear to God, however, a just God understands that not everybody is comfortable with or understands praying the rosary (I would say most Catholics don't even pray the rosary). These people honor God in other ways. If God doesn't care one way or the other about the rosary, but sees just how dedicated those who pray it are, then surely God must recognize that dedication and devotion. We are all limited in one way or another, whether it be our surroundings or the way we are brought up and how we are raised. I think it is very limited to view God as an angry tyrant who demands being worshipped in only his 100% approved way (that only he knows) and all else condemns us to hell.
highchurchman made this point so much better than I was able to do: If I am in error, I have confidence in a just Trinity, that my lack of knowledge or understanding will be forgiven. As far as I can see I have not wilfully ignored the teachings of Scripture, neither have I gone against the traditions of the ages! This is the point that I was trying to make in the last paragraph of the last post.
Honouring and contacting the dead is contrary to reason because they're dead and we're alive. What more do you need than that? There is no marriage in Heaven, there is no pain, there is no change, and there is rest - life is very different there. When the martyrs beg Christ to avenge them on Earth, in Revelation, He tells them to rest and be in quiet and peace until all is finished. He completely ignored their prayer! Also, are you shifting the burden of proof from the positive position to the negative one? What about "innocent until proven guilty"? You must prove that prayers to the saints are good, fruitful, meritorious, and allowed - rather than that we must prove that they're not allowed. Scripture has much to say against contacting the dead; is it not safer and more proven to be on the side that errs in caution, rather than errs in excess? Perhaps God is no angry tyrant who demands an exact liturgical form or else we go to Hell - but He has been very adamant that we are to contact no spirits in Heaven except Himself. Remember how Satan can turn himself into an angel of light (2 Corinthians 11:14)? Surely he can impersonate a so-called saint too. Remember how the Lord tells us not to turn to mediums or necromancers who contact the dead for us (Leviticus 19:31), which assumes that regular people cannot contact the dead? Remember how anyone who "inquires" of the dead/contacts "familiar" spirits (Deuteronomy 18:11) is severely condemned by God? Perhaps it isn't wrong in of itself to meet the dead in prayer, but God has told us that it is very easy to teeter over the edge, and we should avoid any easy temptations, obstacles, stumbling blocks, or scandal. It's clear enough how the current veneration of Rome and the East developed in history: at first it's just "saint x, pray for us", then "saint x, intercede/advocate for us", then "saint x, obtain for us the grace to do action y", then "saint x, save us from our meritless uncleanness by imparting some of the grace you merited by your holy life". The line is an easy enough one for any of us to fall into. Within a few centuries of welcoming too many pagans in without educating them properly, they went from merely speaking to a fellow sinner in Heaven, to having millions of little advocates, grace-obtainers, and Christs in Heaven. Though we protestants are treated like the deniers, as if we are narrowing the faith by uncharitable legal, pharisaic, bureaucratic tactics, I believe Anglo-Catholics started putting invocation of the saints very early into their public liturgy, didn't they? The bishop of Ripon in the 1850s or 1860s was telling off Pusey for carrying forth many prayers to the saints. It really was an ingenious way to separate themselves from other Anglicans by making the evangelicals unable to join the A.C. service with a good conscience, in unity. I guess you guys want to pray to your dead, and you're all quite convinced. There isn't much point going around in circles after this.
Agreed, I appreciate and have enjoyed this discussion, but we are only going in circles at this point.
If you examine all the arguments we've brought to the table you will find they cover all three. Scripture, reason and tradition agree more with against praying to the saints than they are in favour, and a good number of our objections have gone unasnwered...
Scottish Knight, I have tried to answer all of the questions that i've seen thrown my way. If there is something I missed or ignored, please point it out to me. Anglican74 asked three questions earlier in the thread and it was pointed out that no one had answered them, well I just did about an hour ago. I feel that many of our answers have gone ignored as well (with the exception of Consular, who reads and answers our posts). All those who oppose intercession are not at all open to the idea that there may be nothing wrong with it. Nobody has argued that all must ask for intercession to be good Christians, yet many evangelical/protestant types only go around looking for flaws in others and the way they worship instead of looking at theirselves. This one of the reasons I left the SBC, I got tired of having to hate the muslims, mormons, Catholics, and all those who disagree with us. I would disagree with your notion that Scripture, tradition, and reason are on your side and many of us have shown and made our arguments in this thread and the many others before it. Go back to those threads and tell me who is being ignored and whose points are being ignored and marginalized.
I have tried to come back with every answer given, I will go through an make a summary of the different arguments and responses later Sean We'll make sure no argument has been ignored