Hi everyone, I'm a Confessional member of a Dutch Reformed Church (URCNA) with Anglican leanings. I was born and raised (5th Gen) Oneness Holiness-Pentecostal and was a licensed minister with them before converting to orthodox Christianity.
Glad you're here! I've been wanting to ask someone who was a modalist (as you were, presumably) this question. Do you feel, in retrospect, that failure to understand the Trinity is something that would prevent salvation? And can Trinitarians and modalists in theory have fellowship as believers?
Great question! In all honesty, I now with the knowledge and revelation of the Godhead that I possess, would say Yes (it prevents salvation), No (we ca not be in fellowship) Here is why. 1. Modalists, Sabellians, Monarchialists, the whole lot, hate Trinitarians and their doctrine. You may find a nice one here and there, but ultimately they have conceived a fictitious and strawman view of the Triune Godhead and have damned many to hell for following paganism (in their mind). This is no joke, we were taught to think of Trinitarians as a mission field to give further truth to. 2. They worship a variation of God, a deviation from the whole of Scripture and historical witness. They deny most if not all historical documents of the church as pagan and Roman and therefore, not applicable to them as they are "restorationists" of the true apostolic faith. 3. This false image of God gives them a false image of Christ our Lord and Saviour, they worship an image of Jesus not the image of Jesus. Therefore by denying the triune God, and historical church documentation they twice stand in opposition to the Athanasian Creed and its opening stanzas are very clear. If you don't believe in the God of Scripture, then you don't have true salvation, and if you don't have true salvation, you are not of Christ. It is heterodoxy and heretical teaching all smashed into one big stewing mix of unintelligent and belligerent banter. One that is easily misleading and poisonous to the soul.
Welcome to Anglican forums! Seems like a great number of new members in the past few days, including me! What Anglican group are you looking at currently? Personally, I have been looking at either the UECNA or the REC.
Welcome! Amazing avatar by the way. Did you know that at the Synod of Dort, the Anglican bishop Carleton was the only Bishop present? And the Dutch gave him all the reverences of a bishop, including at the Synod itself, something like this: Do you know how we know? Because he was given the Episcopal Canopy for his processions throughout the city, and the only one allowed to sit under an episcopal canopy at the Synod of Dort itself. For a long while I have looked through the engravings of Dort, trying to see if anyone there was sitting under a canopy, until it hit me:
Yes, there are two pieces of art from that meeting in large circulation this is the one I prefer the other is this one, which clearly shows someone under that canopy as well. Am I right in remembering that the Anglicans were forbidden from attendance?
Thank you, that's a very interesting and helpful answer. Wow, I never knew that the feelings and division ran so deeply. How sad that they are so strenuously dogmatic about the issue. I'd assumed (rather optimistically) that they might consider the issue to be something upon which reasonable minds might differ. I can't help noticing one bit of irony, though. Whereas, apparently, the Modalists and such hate Trinitarian doctrine and consider us unsaved, your answer indicates that we should maintain a very similar view of them. Sort of a "tit for tat" situation! What goes around, comes around back at them. (Or, is it the other way around? Maybe it's more of a "chicken and egg" question!)
No it's not a "becuase you do we do" sort of deal here. Their entire system of belief is built upon the shoulders of declared heretics. They reject historical confession and creeds and the triune God. By all accounts save for a few small points their faith is not Christian.
Baptism in the Oneness tradition is specifically "in Jesus' Name" in order to declare their condemnation of the doctrine of the Trinity and supposed "apostolicity."
Well, maybe you can help me understand, because obviously you're in a great position to know what they believe. Are you able to say with certainty that those people do not have faith in Jesus Christ as their Redeemer? The reason I ask is, Jesus never put onto His disciples a requirement of having perfect theological understanding. Nor does the Bible require it. We have many recorded instances in which Jesus said something similar to the following: John 3:14-18 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life. “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. We never see Jesus saying anything to the effect that, "Whoever believes in Me and also understands the Trinitarian Godhead shall have eternal life, but whoever doesn't understand the Trinity is condemned." We don't see in Romans 10 that "if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and the Second Person of the Trinity, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead..." We don't teach that we are saved "by grace through faith plus perfectly orthodox theology, and not by works." Rev, seeing how you were formerly steeped in their doctrinal errors, would you say it's impossible that the vast bulk of those people with whom you previously fellowshipped have actual faith in Jesus Christ? I mean, they believe they're following Jesus Christ, right? And they believe in salvation by grace through faith? It's not like they are following Joseph Smith and depending on good works to climb the steps to the 'Celestial Kingdom', right? If God requires perfect theology for a believer to get to heaven, the place is going to be empty! Not one of us would make it, for sure; each of us 'misses it' in at least some small details. When we Christians are told to not judge people (Matt. 7:1; Luke 6:37; James 4:11-12), how do we properly interface that with our understanding that certain folks who believe themselves to be Spirit-indwelt Christians are in error concerning their concept of the Godhead? Perhaps I'm wrong, but I had assumed this meant that I should regard Modalists and the like as (potentially at least) followers of Jesus the Savior who, despite lack of understanding, are to be loved (at least as "neighbors," and perhaps as possible "brothers") and who might be aided in their understanding by friendly discourse concerning the Scriptures. I recall, when I was very 'young in the Lord' in my mid 20s, that I had a somewhat modalist concept of God. My pastor explained to me the important differences between that and Trinitarianism, and I discarded that early concept. I had (and have) no doubt whatsoever that I was a born-again believer and that the Holy Spirit lived inside of me at that time, but my knowledge of Bible scriptures on that subject was lacking. So I can sympathize with how easy it is for someone, even someone in right standing with God through Christ, to err in that regard. Bless their loving hearts and foolish heads! I hope I'm not hurting your feelings with all of what I've written. Obviously those folks don't feel as conciliatory toward us as I feel toward them, but I'm not sure it's scriptural for me to reciprocate their hard stance.