Hi, I'm an eastern orthodox Christian. I would like to know exactly why someone would choose anglican over orthodoxy. I'm looking for good arguments please.
I see that your religion is Roman Catholic, but you ask about Orthodox or Anglican? I too am RC. Playing on both sides of the fence I imagine the following would be argued: Joe Orthodox: The OC is the true church that traces its origins back to the Apostles. The OC has remained true to the universally recognized Ecumenical Councils before the schism/split between East and West. The Anglican Communion is more splintered than a broken cricket bat. The OC doesn't have the progressive and modern "innovations" of female priests and professed/practicing gay priests and bishops We are the same today like we were back in the day when Saint Paul preached in Greece. Can you be sure that the Anglican Church you attend today will teach the same doctrines 10 years from now? Joe Anglican: The AC is a communion of churches. Yes, some within the Anglican Communion are traveling down paths that some find hard to reconcile with biblical teachings and historic church councils. However, the AC progressively adopts to the modern world to make Christianity relevant and inclusive to modern societal norms. Some in the AC are traditional. Others are super progressive. Some are moderate. Very similar to politics. There is a place for everyone. The Orthodox are exclusive. Do you want a church that is set in stone or keeping up with modernity?
That isn't the case I would make for Anglicanism for all. That is the case for the Episcopal Church, the 'big tent' argument which has no basis in historic doctrine or tradition at all. I don't care about keeping up with modernity, and I'm very much interested in a church that is set in stone. The problem with Orthodoxy is that it's not set in stone at all. You cannot go to a place to find out what Orthodoxy teaches/belives. You can only find what individual Orthodox members teach/believe. The only reason it is less poisoned by modernism is exactly why Islam is less poisoned by modernism -- the people are not Western-European. You would not ascribe any supernatural blessing to the Muslims (I certainly would consider them heretics). Nor would you give credit to the conservativism of the Mormons (they too are heretics). But I'm supposed to assume that the Orthodox are conservative because of some some sort of blessing? Give me a break. They are eastern-european centric, and for that reason white liberal ideals are not shared by them. The case for Anglicanism, the authentic historic faith, IS that it is written down. You know exactly what we believe. It is the church of the Fathers, before the corruption and the errors of the middle ages bore the faith into a decline. At the Reformation we restored much of the pure faith, but most of the Protestants fell off into their own errors as well. The Anglican Communion is the only church that actually literally looks like the ancient fathers, and teaches what the ancient fathers taught. The Orthodoxy is certainly very far removed from the faith of St. Cyril, St. Augustine, Justin Martyr, etc. Not to mention the Apostles, and our Lord. Or the Prophets. Orthodoxy is a brainchild of the byzantine empire, obsessed with byzantine symbology and history, with little connection to anything apostolic.
I am a Anglican Christian. Anglican is a way of being Christian as Orhthodox is a way of being Christian. I see merit in both. The reasonI am Anglican has to do with my cultural baggage as much as anything. Orthodoxy as I have encountered asks me to become more Greek or more Russian ... than I am really comfortable with as it is less authentic for me to be something other than what I am. I value my orthodox friends as I feel we have a great deal in common and a great deal to learn from each other.
Orthodoxy's beliefs are based on a spectrum rather than a clearly defined set of tenants. However, there are certainly things they believe that are distinctly Orthodox such as rejection of Augustine's Original Sin doctrine, and the matters concerning the filioque. They believe the holy spirit preserves this spectrum of distinctly Orthodox doctrine within the body of churches, so there is no need to define it in a single, all-encompassing catechism. This makes sense given their emphasis on mystery, that we are better off saying what God isn't rather than say everything God CAN be. In other words, defining themselves too clearly in a catechism is more akin to rationalism/scholasticism which is something they often chide the Roman Catholics for. Simply put, whatever the Orthodox priests you meet tell you at whatever church you go to in order to set you on the path to Orthodoxy is acceptable, since there is no one proper way to start understanding God and Christianity so long as you're sincere. The Old Catholic Church is like Orthodoxy in that sense, but is also like the Episcopal Church in terms of its lapse into heresy.
The #1 reason I would hesitate to attend Orthodox because when I left the Romans I stopped believing that the Eucharist elements are physically transformed. I believe that Jesus is in the Eucharist spiritually and sacramentally, but not physically. I also get the impression that Orthodoxy may be too legalistic. But I don't know enough about it to be certain.
I do have to say its offensive to be likened to Muslims considering that the Eastern, Oriental and Assyrian Orthodox churches have experienced more martyrdom at their hands than any other church. Also, a fact check: the Syriac, Coptic, Armenian, Ethiopian, Indian and Assyrian churches have no more to do with the Byzantine Empire than the Church of England, and Coptic monks were among the first Christians in Ireland. The Orthodox Church is very far from being legalistic. I would describe the Orthodox church as rather being focused on the mystery of love, repentance, humility and theosis. The canons for example can be mitigated or set aside through oikonomia, where deemed beneficial for salvation. Of the liturgical churches the Eastern churches are the least legalistic. I’ve never even received a penance when going to reconciliation (confession). Other than correcting that bit of misinformation, and objecting to us being likened to Islam, I am going to stay out of this debate as I did not join this forum to proselytize Anglicanism. Rather my desire is the restoration of communion of the traditional high church and Anglo Catholic Anglicans as a whole, as legitimate heirs of the Western church from which we became estranged, with the Orthodox. Low church, broad church and especially, liberal Anglicanism is irreconcilable to us, and the latter, if the traditionalists cannot dislodge them from power, should probably look to uniting with the other mainline Protestant churches to reduce redundancies amid declining congregations. Given how the vindictive TEC legal effort refuses to sell real estate to departing congregations, perhaps the Orthodox could as a brotherly service acquire these buildings and share them on an interim basis, secretly holding them in trust for the traditional Anglicans. And traditional Anglican bishops should reach out more to our bishops, and be prepared to ask for help and to collaborate; it is an absurdity that most Orthodox bishops, if they encounter an Anglican bishop in America at all, are more likely to meet an Episcopalian than a traditionalist. Traditional high church Anglicans and Orthodox Christians have more in common with each other than with anyone else.
I didn't mean to compare them at all. The Orthodox are our brethren, just as the Presbyterians, and the Romans, and the Lutherans. The comparison with non-Christians was made only to say, here is why they have not been poisoned by modernism. 100 years ago Anglicans too weren't poisoned, and 65 years ago neither were the Romans. Today both the Anglicans and the Romans are poisoned by modernism, and the Orthodox are next. This is a devil which haunts Christianity. For a time it haunted Islam, until the radicals started taking it over in the last few decades. The point was, the best attribute of Orthodoxy, its non-modernism, is not something inherent in its nature. But its worst attribute is its Byzantinism. Not only the cultural artifacts, its byzantine artwork and vestments (which they often attribute to the Apostles!), but its Byzantine theology, at great length removed from the teaching of the ancient Fathers. John of Damascus and Gregory Palamas have little in common with Justin Martyr and St. Cyprian, or Polycarp. So at its best, its non-modernism is temporary and was arrived at by accident. And at its worst, it is removed from the apostolic faith not only by distance but also by its teaching. Anglicanism, at its worst, is infected by modernism, because everyone else is. And at its best, it is the only Christian church which accurately contains the doctrine of the Old and New Testaments, and the teachings of the Fathers of the first 5 centuries.
Rather my desire is the restoration of communion of the traditional high church and Anglo Catholic Anglicans as a whole, as legitimate heirs of the Western church from which we became estranged, with the Orthodox. Low church, broad church and especially, liberal Anglicanism is irreconcilable to us, and the latter, if the traditionalists cannot dislodge them from power, should probably look to uniting with the other mainline Protestant churches to reduce redundancies amid declining congregations.................. I have to ask why not the low church, broad church being irresponsible with Orthodoxy?
Can our Orthodox friends like Liturgyworks tell us what they think of this article, regarding Anglican and Orthodox relations? http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/inq_anglican.aspx
Everything on that website is published by fanatic Old Calendarist schismatics and should be ignored.
Liturgy, thank you for your input once again. Do you hold Anglicans in low regard for their tolerating the rejection of Mary's sinlessness and perpetual virginity?
The notion of 'ever virgin' has been held by numbers of people, including including the likes Luther, Zwingli, Calvin, Laitimer, Cranmer and Wesley, so whilst Anglicans in general would not hold this as a doctrine required unto salvation, it is also a doctrine that has been embraced or accepted by many including Anglicans. Whilst some Anglicans reject it, I don't think they should do so with any vehemence or suggestion that those who accept such a view are unsaved. Mary's sinlessness or otherwise I would see in the sense that Athanasius argued that which he did not assume he did not redeem. On that basis I don't find the view especially helpful, however I do listen to those who hold such a view, and have some measure of understanding what they are arguing in terms of the absolutely unique nature of the the events surround the incarnation of the Lord. At the end of the day such a judgement is above my pay grade.
Indeed so. It would be interesting to do a thread on past and potential future liturgical borrowings between the Eastern Churches and the Anglicans, if anyone is interested.