St. Thomas More, King Henry VIII, and English History/Ecclesiology

Again the instant reply window has been difficult leaping about and making it hard to compose a letter.I was unable to finish the above.

For Anglican literature on both the Papacy and the Council of Trent, read Littledale' offerings . Both obtainable on Google. Also publications by the 18th Cent,Vicar of Leeds.( A Highchurchman. I forget his name.) He also publishes Lives of the Archbishops in three vol.

Further reading available Papalism, a magisterial and definitive publication by Denny. It takes us from the Early Church to Trent.

 

You said they codified opinions current at the time, then. My point stands. The council's job is not to codify the opinions current at the time but to establish the truth. Unfortunately Trent codified the then current opinions and led their church away from the truth.

 

- @highchurchman

But it fulfilled all of the Orthodox requirements for validity, until they changed them afterwards to say that "the consent of the faithful" (which could mean any number of ridiculous standards) is now required.

The thing is that their presence doesn't negate the Papacy's authority. And even if some bishops resented it, that wouldn't necessarily prove your position. France once rebelled against the Papacy (Gallicanism), but returned -- no bearing at all on the Pope's spiritual authority either way.

I accidentally included that portion of the paragraph from the wiki.

Good!

Actually, many leading Protestants were invited and offered honorable places there.

Nothing else that you mentioned would seem to pose even a minor threat to the Council's validity.

"Paid officials of one man"? Can you provide evidence for this?

The Church also never "[separated] from other catholics" (as if such a thing could happen -- She contains "the fullness of Truth"!). But I would say that the Church of England did.

 

- @Spherelink

The Councils that you recognize also "codified opinions current at the time" -- are they wrong, too? Your statements on this, taken to their logical conclusion, make little sense to me. Instead of going after the Council's affirmation of doctrines vis-à-vis its time period, try going after the doctrines themselves. You have not proven that the Council led the Church away from the Truth.

 

Matthew, perhaps I missed it (I havent been following the debate), but what is the claim you assert for the Pope historically having jurisdiction over the Church in England?

 

- @Lowly Layman

Sts. Augustine of Canterbury, Laurence of Canterbury, Theodore of Canterbury, Dunstan, and Thomas Becket -- all primates of the organization that you recognize -- recognized the Pope as their spiritual "boss".

The in-depth explanation is on-going -- we've had a pretty good discussion so far.

 

Matthew,
early on in the discussion you state that "Doctrinal loyalty to the pope" has always been present in England, taking aa your starting point the installation of st. augustine as archbishop of canterbury. now surely you're excluding the last 500 years, which is no small chunk of time, and of course you've also conceded the British church that existed prior to Augustine of Canterbury, which obviously didn't have doctrinal unity with the Pope, hense the need for a Synod of Whitby in the first place. My biggest question is what "doctrinal loyalty" is? And secondly, how this implies submission to the Pope's jurisdictional authority in a way that supercedes tje authority

 

of diocesan and or national leaders, such as local bishops and kings?

 

Nope. The Church has still been present -- the Sacraments have been around.

Nope. I addressed that in a recent response to highchurchman.

Acceptance of the things which the Church, headed by the Pope, binds the faithful to believe.

The men I mentioned were all appointed by the Pope, and they submitted to him over kings and other bishops. St. Thomas Becket was martyred for that!

 

Their validity is not based on currency of opinions at the time. The concept of a trinitarian orthodoxy was not the predominant opinion at the time of Nicea and thereafter. But the holy bishops fought for what was true regardless of current opinion. The Church of England has embraced the honorary primacy of the See of Rome, as a traditional point of unity. When that bishop became a bloodthirsty tyrant who declared that the power of the whole church sprung from him, our holy bishops stood for the timeless truth yet again, even in the face of Romanist terrorists tying to assassinate and blow up whatever in England they could.

 

I've read through the thread. Matthew, it was a bit difficult to understand your stance on the nature of the pope's authority in England, given all the parsing and quoting, but I think your argument is essentially historical, ie, that England recognized the authority of the Pope, based on the following:

1. St. Augustine of Canterbury was a missionary sent to England by Gregory; and
2. Synod of Whitby "looked to the papacy"

In both cases, however, the more immediate authority of the king is required for the primacy of the Pope to be recognized. The Venerable Bede, in Book 1,

I'm confused by this. You accept the validity of CofE's sacraments? Doesn't that require you to recognize the Anglican orders of ministry?

 

...point 1 continued from above...chapter 25, recounted that before he could freely minister, he had to convert and get the permission of the king--the king, not the pope--and while the pope may have spearheaded the mission trip to England, it was only done so at the license of the king. Again, at Whitby, it was not the pope, but rather the king who bound the english people to the latin calculation of the easter date, and without quibbling over the veracity of Bede's reports of the King's reasoning, it still must be acknowledged that the final decision lay with the king rather than the pope. If the king's calculus included deference to St. Peter, and presumably his successors, then it holds weight only insofar as the king continues to show deference. future kings are not bound by the decisions of prior ones. Judges work on precedent. kings, rather, work on fiat. In England, the king the tied the king tied the knot that linked Canterbury and Rome, and at his election, that tie was cut. It seems to me a fact of history that in England, if nowhere else, the kung held ultimate authority over the church.

 

apologies forthe typos. my phone continues to.act up

 

Two of the major Catholic Communions do not recognise Florence as an ecumenical council. A general one perhaps, but it isn't in the major league, of these there are only seven.

Papal Authority? Now where's that in scripture, in Holy Tradition or the Canons of the Church?"
This is the basis of the discussion, papal authority is usurped!
As for the ,'French Position'? The fact is that Napoleon Buonopart, signed an agreement with the papacy and sacked the French Bishops at the behest of the Papacy (Circa 1810,) thus ridding the Bishop of Rome of his Gallican critics and Napolean of a large part of the Bourbon ,'Old Regime,' opposition. Interestingly for the next 40 years there was a nonjuring church in France till the middle of the 19th, Cent. Even when the Royalists returned it refused to accept the Holy Roman Church in France as a Church with valid orders.

True, true, very true! Trouble was they could remember previous councils when protestants, (Hus and others,) had been invited, provided with passes and then strangled! It wasn't very reassuring was it?

It separated from the Orthodox in 1054!
In ,or at the Trent Council , it was agreed amongst the few, that anyone who challenged the Bishop of Rome were anathametised. During the papal attempt to interfere in English politics [1572] this was put in to force and the Holy Roman Church started in England. Up to then there had been no break with communion and indeed many people considered that the Queen was about to allow Roman Bishops in England.[ England & Rome .}

I'm sure she does contain the fullness of truth in that she is a portion of The Body of Christ. You have not proved where she has strayed from Christ's Revelation.

 

Half of my reply has gone missing from the above!

 

@Spherelink:

I've made clear that I do not believe that temporal actions negate spiritual truths. And the hands of Anglicans are certainly not free of blood.

 

@Lowly Layman:

None of that information definitively proves anything beyond that kings enforced the decisions of popes. And like you have pointed out, if a king did not adopt a pope's decision, then the decision would likely be less appreciated. But this does not prove that a spiritual papal decision is not inherently binding.

Do you really find it endearing that kings "work on fiat"? I certainly never could. By that standard, Elizabeth II could tomorrow declare Christ as only human, and you would still be bound to accept her authority!

And I did not mean to comment on the validity of the CoE's sacraments. I was referring to the Sacraments as held by the Church that I belong to -- they have been in England throughout this time period.

 

@highchurchman:

"Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s; and to God the things that are God’s." (Matthew 22:21). There is a separation of temporal authority and spiritual authority. Many things are beyond the competence of simple kings.

The Church Fathers did not trust earthly authorities to set much, especially doctrine! And they found excess nationalism repulsive (as I do)!

"[A]ll the powers and dignities [e.g. kings and queens] of this world are not only alien to, but enemies of, God.." - Tertullian
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf03.iv.iv.xviii.html

"But as for you, you are a foreigner in this world, a citizen of Jerusalem, the city above. Our citizenship, the apostle says, is in heaven." – Tertullian
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf03.iv.vi.xiii.html

"For what are the interests of our country but the hardships of another state or nation?" - Lactantius

And finally, the Church Fathers most certainly defended the authority of the Pope:
http://www.churchfathers.org/category/the-church-and-the-papacy/authority-of-the-pope/