Calvinism and Christianity - incompatible?

Sure Pax_Christi, but I have to be very careful in how I frame this because I don't want another 'inappropriate post' infraction...

First of all I am mystic and have been for many years so it colours a lot of what of say...

When I talk about dualistic thinking I am talking about the human concept of win/lose right/wrong black/white light/dark etc. Where I believe Christs message was all about inclusion and win/win and that is why I was quite impressed with brother Consulars statement about yes/and... So what I am saying is that to be fully engaged in love for God/Self/Neighbour there is no room for win/lose, light/dark, right/wrong even if your neighbour doesn't think/believe/do/be what you are not, and you can read into think/believe/do/be anything you like (warning infraction proximity) because it is that LOVE that matters and that is what God is offering us unconditionally. That said when we start talking about foreknowledge and predestined I don't see how this adds anything to our belief system, as I believe we can be both fore known and fore known at the same time, and we can be predestined and not predestined at the same time. I have said this before here in this forum - my truth is true to me and your truth is true to you and though it sounds like a paradox in non-dualistic thinking it is possible that both your truth and my truth are true at the same time, even if they appear to be complete opposites.

 

Well, since I'm not a Van Tilian I don't appeal to Deuteronomy 29:29 as "mystery". The Bible clearly says that God ordains evil. There is nothing mysterious about Isaiah 45:7 or Amos 3:16 or even Romans 9:11-22. Or how about Proverbs 16:4?

I might also point out that Martin Luther was not a Calvinist. Yet Luther argued in The Bondage of the Will that divine foreknowledge would prove that there are no contingencies with God. If God foreknows the future, then the future is already set before it gets here, before anyone acts. Thus, if God foreknows the future it will definitely happen, no contingencies whatsoever. And if it will happen as God foreknows it, then God must have decreed and predetermined it. Otherwise, it is merely a contingency in God's mind as well. Basically, if you are an Arminian you must deny that God planned the cross and just about every prophecy in Scripture. Isaiah 14:24 and Isaiah 46:9-10 prove that God determines what will happen and therefore brings it to pass just as He has determined.

 

I thank God that there are men wiser & more intelligent than myself to tackle all this.

There's just one question before I admit honest ignorance about all this: why does the subject actually matter? Arminians are biblical, protestant, catholic, orthodox Christians who reject a justification of works. What is it about the Arminian theology that makes it so utterly objectionable, damnable, and anathema?

I myself firmly believe in the Holy, Almighty, Infinite, Eternal Sovereign God who is the Father of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. I intend to hold onto this revealed truth with all my being: helped by His grace, in His holy will and Providence. Shall I be condemned because I do not believe God died only for Some arbitrarily, or because I do not believe that my hand is forced by a despotic right arm?

Does an Arminian prove himself Reprobate by the mere rejection of Calvinism? After all, you say the Doctrines of Grace are at the very center of the Holy Scriptures - if we reject them, how can we be saved? Yet, will you save we cannot be saved? It seems the only option.

Interesting questions anyway...

 

The Bible is propositional truth, not mystical, ineffable experience. To confuse evil with good and good with evil is called relativism. The law of contradiction pits truth claims against false claims. A cannot be non-A and A at the same time. That would be a contradiction. Also, could you please define what you mean by the term "love"? What is it?

 

The non-dualistic answer to those questions brother is yes and no to each

 

Romans 8 does not say that foreknowledge precedes predestination. It says that those God foreknew were "predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son," (Rom 8:29 NKJ) And in the following verses, predestination precedes calling, justification and glorification. It logically follows that foreknowledge and predestination are in complete agreement. In fact, predestination is throughout Scripture. Even reprobation is predetermined according to Romans 9:11-13. Esau was hated before he was even born or did good or evil.

 

Unfortunately big brother, though we agree as to Free Will, I still disagree with you about your conception of love and Christ's mission as "inclusion". Your Universalism will never sit well in a conversation about Calvinism... nor with most Arminians. You're in a difficult spot.

 

If God foreknows it is certain. He most certainly foreknows that some will not be conformed to the image of His Son. That would imply that foreknowing the elect and predestining them to be conformed to His image are not given to the reprobate but only the elect. So if this is predetermined prior to their birth, it is ultimately determined by God, not by "free" will.

 

THE SOVEREIGNTY OF GOD. Sect. 9.—THIS, therefore, is also essentially necessary and wholesome for Christians to know: That God foreknows nothing by contingency, but that He foresees, purposes, and does all things according to His immutable, eternal, and infallible will. By this thunderbolt, "Free-will" is thrown prostrate, and utterly dashed to pieces. Those, therefore, who would assert "Free-will," must either deny this thunderbolt, or pretend not to see it, or push it from them. -- Martin Luther, The Bondage of the Will.

http://www.truecovenanter.com/truelutheran/luther_bow.html#sover

 

Romans 9 does indeed present strong predestination. What do you make of Joshua 24:15 and Deuteronomy 30:19-20? Deut. 23:23? Even further back, God told our First Parents that they "shall not" eat of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. They made the decision to do so. Did God will the very thing that was not His Will?

The Will of God is the point about Calvinism that most disturbs me. God gives promises of life in the law and death in disobedience via the choice of Israel - yet the Calvinist must say God didn't really mean what He said. The Calvinist God is a liar.

If God absolutely predestined some to eternal damnation based on nothing but His Good Pleasure (arbitrary), why does John say "God is Love"? For "Love is patient, kind", etc. (1 Cor. 13)?

 

I don't agree with you Charlie but I do like your reply... no matter what labels you feel you need to use... I looked up relativism and what I am talking about is not relativism...

Sure I can define what I mean by Love.... God is Love....

 

That's not a "definition". That's a tautology. Of course Scripture says that God is love in 1 John 4:7-8. But the word there is agape. Do you believe love is a volition or an emotion?

 

That is why I have to be very careful how I say it.... else I get myself into trouble......

 

Probably best I back away from discussing this any further with you Charlie.... You asked me what I mean by Love and I told you... I cannot help it if you don't agree with my answer...

 

Well, if Calvinism troubles you then you ought to be troubled by the Scriptures for it is the teaching of Scripture that says that God predestines everything that happens. That does not rule out human accountability or responsibility, however. Both are true. Simply because God commands what men are unable to do without His giving them the grace to do so does not excuse them from obedience. As Augustine said in his prayer which offended Pelagius, "Lord command what you will and grant what you command." The 1662 Book of Common Prayer is full of collects that ask God to grant us the grace to do this or that. Why? Because we do not have the power in ourselves to do anything. Jesus said, "Without me you can do nothing." John 15:5. Do you support the root or does the root support you?

I might also point out that attacking God as "arbitrary" is merely the pot attacking the Potter. Since you are a mere creature with very limited knowledge and understanding, how would you justify attacking a omniscient Creator who is much smarter than you are? Romans 9:20-21; Romans 3:3-6 Whatever God does is not arbitrary but deliberate. How could an omniscient and omnipotent God do anything "arbitarily"? Whatever God does is right, including when He predetermines moral evil and natural calamities. (Isaiah 45:7; Amos 3:6; 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12; 1 Peter 2:8).

Salvation comes from God and unconditional election is the first link in the golden chain. "But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth," (2 Thessalonians 2:13 NKJ)

 

Well, my point is that definitions matter. If "love" is a volition, that makes a world of difference. In fact, saying that God is love is to say that benevolence is one of the propositions of deity. But it is most certainly not an emotion in regards to God since God is without body parts or passions. Article 1.

 

And I cannot help it if you do not agree with all of Scripture, including the Scriptures that assert God's decrees to election and reprobation and His decrees that predetermine men's future actions:

"Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death; (Acts 2:23 NKJ)
"For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together 28 "to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done. (Acts 4:27-28 NKJ)

 

Calvinists do not reject the Scriptures that emphasize human accountability. But Arminians and semi-pelagians object to the passages that show God's absolute sovereignty.

 

Charlie I don't hold with the idea that there are different types of love but our society does and call it emotion. Call it a volition if you like but to me God is Love and it is through Love that we know God, ourselves and our neighbours.

 

I believe God's absolute sovereignty from those passages. Predestination does not preclude free will. My own objection to Calvinism is strongest especially in the notion of the Limited Atonement. When Christ said "my blood is shed for the multitude ~ the many", and that "many ~ the multitude are called, but few chosen", He meant it. "The Many", "The Multitude", etc., always refer to all men.

Don't take it as bad feelings or an evil will, Charlie, but I am simply not equipped for this conversation. I will wait and pray for others who are better at this to defend the God of our Fathers against puritanism.