Quite true, and what I have been saying. The Methodist itinerant preachers took the Gospel to the people, in the most isolated or "uncivil" places.
Indeed! As one who has a doctorate in church history/theology, I know who has the facts in this joust between you and Stalwart.
You are of course right in your conclusions, I have no doubt. Even so, we have but One, Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church! It has certain parameters set within the time of Christ and the Apostles , if we abandon these parameters, what certainties have we to put in their place! Is the Body of Christ to be a Mad House, fuelled by the latest whim, or passing shade! Are we to succumb to the developments of the vatican and its,emasculated bishops? Catholicism stands in the shade of revelation, scripture and Holy Tradition. Otherwise we will have bedlam.'
Report away, You are a methodist, I have no objections to that. I never even thought of you, take that as you will!
I'll take you at your word; thus, I shall not report you. In spite of our disagreements, I have never found you to be mean-spirited, and I still consider you a friend. I am not a Methodist. I am an Old Catholic and clergy Associate Member of AMiA.
I have started another thread to help understand what is "One, Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church" -- maybe after I understand that I can better understand the strong objections to Methodism.
I think Highchurchman was alluding to the Celtic peoples/areas of Britain such as in Cornwall and Wales where Methodism was particularly strong. In the small village where I live there were no less than 3 Methodist Chapels at one point and many more dotted around nearby in isolated places.
That's very interesting Symphorian. Someone pointed out earlier that the heritage of methodism in America is very different from that in Britain. Those in the US saw themselves as the continuation of the national Church of England in the new nation that had formed. Looking at the Sunday Service that I linked to earlier shows that on the very first page, John Wesley lauded the BCP and saw this as a BCP locally adapted for American use. They weren't acting in defiance of the episcopal church as there was no episcopal church to speak of at the time of the formation fo the Methodist church in the US. I read somewhere an old speech given at the beginning of the 20th Century by a leader in the Methodist Episcopal Church (as it was called in those days) as to why the Methodist Church and the Episcopal Church had never joined togethet since they were"twin sisters of the same mother". He argued from the Methodist side that , at the beginning of the birth of the Episcopal Church, it was invaded and influenced by Deism and Rationalism resulting from the Enlightenment era. The church, in the beginning at least was even tolerant of unitarianism, see King's Chapel in Boston as proof that these charges weren't unfounded: http://justus.anglican.org/resources/bcp/Kings_Chapel1785.htm By the time the speech was made, the Tractarian movement had taken hold in the the US and the speaker was distrustful of where that would head for the PECUSA. Which is why he recommended that the two denominations remain distinct for at least the time being.
The charismatic movement is very big in the catholic church. Again, holinessism is distinct from pentacostalism. What exactly is your beef with the holiness and pentacostal movement anyway?
That is true, but the Church of God and their cousins do get their doctrine of entire sanctification from the holiness movement which is Wesleyan but not Methodist -- the holiness bodies split from the Methodists over the issue of worldliness and the belief that sanctification was a definite second work of grace after conversion to be experienced instantaneously in a crisis experience. So, as I said, in the CoG, there is conversion/regeneration, then sometime later entire sanctification, and then the baptism of the Holy Spirit evidenced by tongues.
The charges of schism or worse stem from the fact that historically our church declared it so. They have all the marks of it by altering its native theology and schisming from the church. And being denounced by the clergy. What more reason does one need?
Dear Cousin Symphorian, At this juncture, I'm not sure what I meant at the time, I am sure of two things however, one I wasn't being rude and the other is, as I have tried to put across many times here on this board, I believe that the Church in England, or Britain, is the Body of Christ here on Earth. It is not bricks and mortar, neither is it incense or vestments and in my opinion it is not to be handled carelessly! We have abandoned the spiritual and the sacred to simply accept another cardboard cut out of our own beliefs.
Perhaps a group study of 1 Corinthians is in order.:think: "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgement." 1 Corinthians 1:10 Jeff
The question I have for you then, after that statement, is this: Do you consider the Church in England to be the only Body of Christ here on Earth?
Dear Cousin, . I do not, neither is that what the Church in England claims either, for two thousand years the Church in Britain,has claimed no more than to be a , Catholic Communion, within the Body of Christ! There are already two Communions within the whole claiming to be the Church in its entirety, we do simply claim to be the Church in England at this time and of some two thousand years provenance! We are made members by baptism and teach the faith Revealed by Christ by Christ to the Apostolic College, entered within scripture and interpreted, explained and completed by the early bishops and fathers of the seven councils. To hold and to teach the holy faith Catholic Church after the above formula, we consider essential to full membership of the Body of Christ here on earth. We do not condemn, those unfortunates, who reject the Church and its faith, we simply hold to what we were taught through the agency of Christ and the Holy Ghost and the bishops in Council. We hold to the teachings of ,'our Brother Paul,to 'Keep the Deposit,'! For those unfortunates, who will not accept the revelation as laid down in scripture, this is a matter for their consciences and their relationship with the Holy Ghost, for ourselves we simply strive to keep our faith!