Why did the Anglic church reform

Discussion in 'Church History' started by Dallas Rivera, Oct 25, 2017.

  1. Dallas Rivera

    Dallas Rivera New Member

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    Basically what I'm asking here is why the Anglic church was founded if you believe in "One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church". If Anglicans truly believed this wouldn't you guys still be a part of the Catholic church because you believe that it is the one church founded by Christ and you believe in all its teachings and doctrines? I mean how the heck did the Anglic church go from "Catholic" to supporting gay marriage.
     
  2. Peteprint

    Peteprint Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Hello Dallas. The Church of England (post-Reformation) never accepted all of the teachings and doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church. Anglicanism came into being when King Henry VIII broke with the Roman Church over his divorce issues, but Protestant ideas were already taking hold among some in England before this occurred. In my own opinion, those Anglicans who have remained orthodox often view Anglicanism in much the same way as the various Orthodox Churches, e.g., Russian, Greek, etc. These Churches are fully "Catholic," yet not under Roman control. Sadly, many Anglicans have gone the route of the heterodox in doctrine and practice, therefore cutting themselves off from the historic Apostolic and Catholic Church. Global Anglicanism is going through a tumultuous period today, what with the Realignment, the Continuing Churches, etc.
     
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  3. Botolph

    Botolph Well-Known Member

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    Are you speaking of the Church whose Bishops were deposed and whose ArchBishop was starved to death under the Conqueror who invaded England under the Pope's banners? Just saying.
     
  4. anglican74

    anglican74 Well-Known Member Anglican

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  5. anglican74

    anglican74 Well-Known Member Anglican

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    The Anglican Church, is the branch of the Catholic Church that was planted in the British Isles in the Apostolic times. At the Reformation, many Roman Catholic detractors asked Anglicans: "Where your church was before the Reformation?" Anglicans have responded: "where was your face before you washed it this morning?"
     
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  6. Lowly Layman

    Lowly Layman Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Dallas, the Anglican Church is part of the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic church and, in my opinion, the best expression of it around. The Church of England reformed, that is corrected, itself of the errors gradually introduced by Rome over time, in order to better exhibit the marks of the one true church. Medieval Romanism had introduced doctrines that were alien to the Scriptures, the Early Church Fathers, the Councils, and even the Apostles themselves. I recommend Bishop Jewel's Apology of the Church of England which explains this much better than I can. The link is available here: http://www.anglican.net/works/john-jewel-apology-answer-defence-church-of-england/

    As for the issue of Gay Marriage, only certain dioceses and privinces have fallen into error: The Episcopal Church, for example, and a few others. The large majority of Anglicans worldwide are quite orthodox on the issue and I believe realignments are slowly in the works that will censure TEC and others in the hopes that they will repent. The Articles teach that councils and churches can err and have erred. This was true for the Roman Church as much as it is for the rest of Christendom.
     
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  7. Aidan

    Aidan Well-Known Member

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    Let's not go down the road of "who persecuted who" ok!
     
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  8. Stalwart

    Stalwart Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Essentially because the medieval Church was corrupt morally and theologically.

    We can see that from all the ways in which the modern Roman Catholic Church has reformed itself, and left all of its old positions for which it once waged war and called crusades. It now does liturgy in the vernacular (against which it killed & burned in the 1500s), it takes Communion in both kinds (for which it killed & burned the Hussites in the 1400s), its people try to read the Scriptures frequently (when in the 1500s it executed anyone who was found reading the Bible on their own), and it has signed the 1999 Document on Justification, showing that Martin Luther was essentially right and the Council of Trent was basically wrong. By doing all these things and making these changes it shows that it isn't infallible.

    So why did the Anglican Church reform? For the same reason that the Roman Catholic Church reformed now. The RCC today basically looks and functions like it is Anglican. We were ahead of the curve in the 1500s.
     
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  9. Rev2104

    Rev2104 Active Member

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    The Anglican church( The church in England) predates the ideas that are distinctly Roman Catholicism as it has formed over time. These ideas to list a few is the primacy of the pope, purgatory, indulgences etc. We are catholic in the same sense the greek church is catholic. It is the Universal Church for all mankind.
    The real interesting question would when does Roman Catholic start. Under Augustine of hippo theology, Leo or Gregory. Somewhere else. At what point in time can we point too and see Roman Catholicism as Roman Catholicism.
    At a point in history we joined with the Roman Pointif and than we chose not to be under the authority of the Roman Pontif. The Anglican church thought to reform errors it saw in roman Catholicism and avoid the excesses of Continental Protestantism. It looked back to the ancient councils and writings of the early church. All in all I think they did a great job, dispute all the issues we see in certain corners of the church. My Parish is a center of devotion and love of God, a service to our community. A hospital for sinners. While the local Roman parish is trying to find the most liberal interpretation of what ever pope francies said this week.
     
  10. Aidan

    Aidan Well-Known Member

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    You are totally right. The present Novus Ordite church indeed looks and acts Anglican. I thank God daily that there are bishops and priests still who reject this soul destroying wretched modernism
     
  11. Peteprint

    Peteprint Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Hello Aidan. I haven't been part of the conversation really, but I would like to ask you a question. Being a Traditional Roman Catholic, how would you explain the "Novus Ordo Church" in relation to the belief that the Pope is infallible in matters of faith and the Church of Rome as being the True Church? If it is the True Church and the Church of St. Peter, then how could it have gone off track? As the "Vicar of Christ" couldn't the Pope unilaterally restore the Latin Mass tomorrow?
     
  12. Ide

    Ide Active Member

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    What is up with these Roman Catholic posts attacking Anglicanism? This is getting out of hand. I don't have any animosity towards the RC church, but the tones in some of these posts attacking the Anglican church are nasty. If I want to learn about the RC church, I will go to a RC forum.
     
  13. Stalwart

    Stalwart Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Notice even the way you've said it: equating Anglicanism with modernism. On the surface that sounds extremely un-Christian, and I can see why @Ide would be very upset with you.

    But I understand the source of your frustration: the modern RC Church is beset by modernism. But guess what, so is the Anglican Church! If Anglicanism was modernism (from the 1500s or whatever), then how can modernism 'become' modernist? There is a very clear divide between 'modernist' Anglicans and traditional, proper, classical, orthodox Anglicans, and I'm sure you know exactly what I mean.

    What I think you're sensing is that RC's problems came at exactly the same time as when it became 'Anglican'. Just when you went to the vernacular liturgy, the communion in both kinds, etc etc, your seminaries got emptied out and your bishops and priests started preaching heresies. But those two are not connected! It's just that the old RC rules were flatly wrong, and your liberals used your own past mistakes to push for 'improvement' -- communion in both kinds, and smuggled in other 'improvements' -- modernism. The two came at the same time.

    Thus for you to reject modernism you have to reject communion in both kinds; you have to reject vernacular liturgy. And that's just unsustainable, you can't win that battle. The world just isn't going to go back to Latin and to obscure Communion rules from the 12th century. So your position is ultimately doomed to defeat, and I say that charitably.

    That is why I have chosen traditional Anglicanism. It is is certainly not modernist, since our doctrines go back millenia. But it is also reformed in such a way as to fix the medieval problems that make you so vulnerable. Our Church has the capacity to go on into the future, with our traditional doctrines intact, while for you the Latin Mass is destined to be a museum piece forever. You have no way forward, in Catholicism.
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2017
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  14. Dallas Rivera

    Dallas Rivera New Member

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    We see clearly whats happening in the Anglican communion and all of these dioceses in other lands. You guys have no central authority except for scripture (and I suppose the BCP) and your different branches constantly battle each other. While yes we have conflicts in the RC Church we still have the Pope who steps in and resolves them. The doctrine that all you all(according to many Anglicans) believe is scripture alone (as in scripture is all you need for authority). Sola Scriptura(Soley Scripture) doesn't seem to be working for you right now with all of the heresy which is at least 3x more prominent in the Episcopal Church as opposed to the Catholic Church. So why is sola scriptura (scripture alone) bad?
    Because nowhere in the bible does it say that you ONLY and exclusively need scripture. The doctrine contradicts itself because it presupposes what scripture is; a bunch of books inspired by God that belong to the Bible. But if the Bible is the only source of Christian truth then we couldn't have such knowledge because the Bible never tells us which books are inspired. If sola scriptura (solely scripture) were true, then we couldn't know what scripture is. Do you see how it is self-refuting? Even if the bible did give us a list of inspired books and we believed they are inspired and accepted them; we couldn't accept that list for we would be guilty of circular reasoning. For example, why do you believe the biblical books are inspired? Because they say that they are inspired! Well, why do you believe them when they say that? Because they are inspired! See it is Sola Scriptura is simply nonsense circular reasoning. The only way to see the Bible as being inspired by God without circular reasoning is by the infallible church which Christ has founded, the Church tells us which books are inspired. If every religion's scripture were "inspired" by God then how would we know which scripture to trust? Looking forward to your response.
     
  15. Rev2104

    Rev2104 Active Member

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    It would be hard to unilaterally go back to the Latin mass. First would be the practical, the majority of bishops like the new order and would fight to keep. The majority of parishioners would desire keep it.
    Second the church embraces councilarism (more or less). The decrees of the council represents the will of God. So the changes brought about by vatican 2 will not change.
    The funny thing is Vatican 2 goes against other councils and this creates some problems that would make Vatican 2 an illegitimate council.

    In the end this is why scripture, not councils and popes are the bedrock of faith and practice. I love patristic theology and and embrace church tradition. I just keep it in perspective of scripture.

    I am not an expert on any of this, been a long time since I thought about the Roman Church and Vatican 2.
     
  16. Rev2104

    Rev2104 Active Member

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    To be charitable to them, the parishes that support the latin mass seems to be the only areas of renewed life in the Roman Church. That being said I agree The Roman Church collected a lot of baggage which they have not shed. The anglican church shacked off that baggage. At the same time we are far from perfect. In the past we struggled to find a way between Rome and Geneva in theology, in the present we have in large part gave up the culture war and modernism has gutted our institutions.

    I am an Anglican and happy to be raising my daughter in my faith. I do not think we should be attacking each other.
     
  17. Rev2104

    Rev2104 Active Member

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    Anglicanism does not reject the early church councils and traditions. So to say we do not believe in things outside of scripture is untrue. We believe in both tradition and scripture, giving the greater weight to scripture. That is why things such as the pope, indulgences, purgatory is repugnant to us cause it is not found clearly in scripture and all are later additions to the faith. We can with all honesty point to the place in history where that was added.
     
  18. Dallas Rivera

    Dallas Rivera New Member

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    I could go on about the topics which you have stated but for the sake of time, I will pick purgatory. Purgatory is “All who die in God’s grace and friendship but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation: but after death, they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven. The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.” (CCC 1030-31). Although the doctrine of purgatory is not explicitly set out in the Bible, there is a considerable scriptural warrant for it and immense documentation for it among the earliest fathers of the Church.
    The Witness of Scripture: The foundations are found in the Old Testament as well as in the New.

    1. 2 Mc. 12:43-46 “He then took up a collection among all his soldiers, amounting to 2000 silver drachmas, which he sent to Jerusalem to provide for an expiatory sacrifice. In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection in mind; for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be absolved from their sin.”

    2. Mt. 12:32 “And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.” (This implies that that there are sins that will be forgiven in the world to come”)

    3. 1 Cor. 3:13-15 Saint Paul tells us that “every man’s work shall be manifest” on the Lord’s. “The fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is. If any man’s work abide (if his works are holy), he shall receive a reward. If any man’s works burn (if his works are faulty and imperfect), he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet as by fire” This is clearly consistent with a purgation after death before entering heaven. Thus, 1 Pet 1:7 The Corinthians passage demonstrates that the testing may well be not in this life but after death. That makes this passage with its reference to “testing” consistent with this interpretation.

    4. 1 Pet 3:19 shows that intermediates are not anti-scriptural. “In it he (Jesus) went to preach to the spirits in prison who had once been disobedient while God patiently waited…”

    5. 1 Jn. 5:17 “Not all sin is deadly.” This shows that not all sin sends you to hell. But you cannot go to heaven without being totally perfect. This implies an intermediate state, necessary for purification. See Rev 21:27 “Nothing unclean shall enter heaven.”
    The Witness of Tradition: The Early Church Fathers indicate that this was considered apostolic teaching. They demonstrate that this belief in purgatory and prayers for the dead clearly goes back to the Apostles.

    1. St. John Chrysostom: “It was not without good reason ordained by the Apostles that mention should be made of the dead in the tremendous mysteries, because they knew well that they would receive great benefit from it.”

    2. Tertullian (2nd Century): “The faithful wife will pray for the soul of her deceased husband, particularly on the anniversary day of his falling asleep (death). And if she failed to do so, she hath repudiated her husband as far as in her lies.” (Prayers for a deceased person would be useless without a doctrine of purgatory).

    3. Eusebius the historian (4th Century): described the funeral of Constantine the Great, how the multitude of people, with tears and much lamentation offered up prayers and sacrifices for his soul. And that Eusebius had reported that Constantine had built a large church in Constantinople so that the faithful might remember him there and pray for him after his death.

    4. St. Cyril of Jerusalem(4th): “We commemorate the holy fathers, and bishops, and all who have fallen asleep from amongst us, believing that the supplications which we present will be of great assistance to their souls, while the holy and tremendous sacrifice offered up. . . So we in offering up a crown of prayers in behalf of those who have fallen asleep, will obtain for them forgiveness through the merits of Christ.”

    5. St. Ephrem(4th): “I conjure you, my brethren and friends, in the name of that God who commands me to leave you, to remember me when you assemble to pray. Do not bury me with perfumes. Give them not to me but to God. Me, conserved in sorrows, bury with lamentations, and instead of perfumes assist me with your prayers; for the dead are benefitted by the prayers of saints.”

    6. St. Monica: “Lay this body anywhere; let not the care of it anyway disturb you. This only I request of you, that you would remember me at the altar of the Lord, wherever you be.” & St. Augustine then prays for his deceased mother.
    Source: Catholic, Sf A. “What Is Purgatory? Did the Church Make It Up?” St. Marys Catholic Campus Ministry, Sfacatholic.net, 2 July 2013, sfacatholic.net/what-is-purgatory.
     
  19. Stalwart

    Stalwart Well-Known Member Anglican

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    In fact we have four instruments of authority, one of which are the Lambeth Conferences, every ten years. The Lambeth 1998 conference contains item 1.10:

    This Conference:
    1. commends to the Church the subsection report on human sexuality [1];
    2. in view of the teaching of Scripture, upholds faithfulness in marriage between a man and a woman in lifelong union, and believes that abstinence is right for those who are not called to marriage;
    3. recognises that there are among us persons who experience themselves as having a homosexual orientation. Many of these are members of the Church and are seeking the pastoral care, moral direction of the Church, and God's transforming power for the living of their lives and the ordering of relationships. We commit ourselves to listen to the experience of homosexual persons and we wish to assure them that they are loved by God and that all baptised, believing and faithful persons, regardless of sexual orientation, are full members of the Body of Christ;
    4. while rejecting homosexual practice as incompatible with Scripture, calls on all our people to minister pastorally and sensitively to all irrespective of sexual orientation and to condemn irrational fear of homosexuals, violence within marriage and any trivialisation and commercialisation of sex;
    5. cannot advise the legitimising or blessing of same sex unions nor ordaining those involved in same gender unions;
    6. requests the Primates and the ACC to establish a means of monitoring the work done on the subject of human sexuality in the Communion and to share statements and resources among us;
    7. notes the significance of the Kuala Lumpur Statement on Human Sexuality and the concerns expressed in resolutions IV.26, V.1, V.10, V.23 and V.35 on the authority of Scripture in matters of marriage and sexuality and asks the Primates and the ACC to include them in their monitoring process.
    http://www.anglicancommunion.org/re...-to-full-humanity/section-i10-human-sexuality


    However because of the way Lambeth Conferences were set up back in the 19th century, a Province like the Episcopal Church can violate this resolution without automatic punishment. So currently the orthodox majority of the Anglican Communion, faced with this structural imperfection, is working on a better theology of Church discipline, to more perfectly re-appropriate the ancient tradition of Church Councils:

    https://www.amazon.com/Anglican-Conciliarism-Church-Meeting-Together/dp/0997921196


    So to answer your question, we in fact have multiple authorities: Lambeth Conferences (now being returned to their former authority as official Church Councils), the Primates Meetings (the last of which censured the Episcopal Church), on the doctrinal basis of the BCP, and all of it resting on Scripture.

    Essentially yes, and that's how it should be. That's what a distributed system of authority without a single point of failure looks like. That's what it looked like in the Early Church.


    But what happens when the Pope himself preaches heresy?

    Sola Scriptura doesn't mean solely scripture. Anglicans in fact teach many things that are not in Scripture, and have for centuries without invalidating that concept. How, or why? Because sola scriptura refers to the final authority, which must be God's Revelation. If you want to argue that Revelation exists in your holy tradition, you go right ahead, but if we look at the history of the Roman church we will find no evidence of Holy Tradition. All we find are Roman traditions, which change from century to century. Yesterday a male priesthood, today the girl-altar-boys and the Pope pushing for women deacons. Yesterday Latin, today the vernacular. Yesterday you kill the Lutherans, today you celebrate them. There is no Holy Tradition as a separate source of Revelation. Scripture is the only basis for Revelation, thus sola scriptura. That's what that means.


    I'm not really interested in having a Sola Scriptura discussion and this is not the thread's point anyway.
     
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  20. Rev2104

    Rev2104 Active Member

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    I can go through scripture and found a refute of the interpretation of all those verses you ascribe to purgatory. I can list church fathers in there teachings, teach the opposite of purgatory. It was not tell the Gregory in the 6th century we see the full catholic understanding of purgatory. You can deny and argue against it. I know I did for years.
    So I could do the whole verse for verse and quote for quote with you, but your chosen your hill and I have chosen mine.
     

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