Where does authority stand in the Canterbury Communion?

Discussion in 'Theology and Doctrine' started by highchurchman, Apr 19, 2012.

  1. highchurchman

    highchurchman Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Last year on another forum, I was censured for referring to people who didn't hold to the old beliefs, but who used the description Anglican, to cover themselves! I referred to them as ,'Neo Anglicans,' Any offence was unintentional ,but the supervisor then went on to say that the C.of. E didn't have any dogma and what ever the individual thought was a matter for themselves!

    I had left the Canterbury Group, some 18 years ago, but I was astonished at what I see as the casual rejection of the best part of 1900 years of Catholic History! What do other members of the board think on this matter?
     
  2. Anna Scott

    Anna Scott Well-Known Member

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    I think Christian orthodoxy is losing ground in Anglicanism. Freedom is a funny thing. The Eastern Orthodox broke with Rome, but have managed, for the most part, to maintain their orthodox views. The freedom from Rome's control didn't cause Traditional Christian beliefs to suffer. Of course Rome has always had its own problems.

    Anglicanism is a different story. Freedom from Rome's control has turned into freedom from Tradition and orthodoxy. It does seem that 1900 years of Catholic history has, in many cases, been abandoned. It also seems that Holy Scripture has been abandoned as well.

    So, it is critical that conservative Anglicans fight for Christian orthodoxy. These are tumultuous times, indeed.

    Peace,
    Anna
     
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  3. highchurchman

    highchurchman Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Many thanks for your reply! I find it interesting and am grateful. A ridiculous thing in the whole matter, is that Canterbury, for the want of a better term, has not disencumbered themselves from the ancient doctrine, but as Rome pointed out a few years ago, it simply doesn't teach it! For years I felt guilty at severing communion with the C.of E, and its friends, but slowly as the ,to my mind, the neglect of anything theologically Anglican and the adoption of all Dissenting ideas, both Roman & protestant has become clear, I feel a relief.

    High Churchman!
     
  4. Anna Scott

    Anna Scott Well-Known Member

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    If you don't mind my asking, are you in Communion with Rome? Anglican Catholic can refer to Anglicans whose beliefs lean more toward Catholicism. It also refers to Anglicans who have entered into full Communion with Rome.

    Peace,
    Anna
     
  5. highchurchman

    highchurchman Well-Known Member Anglican

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  6. Anna Scott

    Anna Scott Well-Known Member

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    High,
    Thanks for the clarification. I appreciate your posts and point of view. :)

    Peace,
    Anna
     
  7. Sean611

    Sean611 Well-Known Member

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    Anna,

    You make an interesting point here. Many of the Roman Catholics that i've spoken with feel that Anglicanism has lost its orthodoxy due to the fact that Anglicans have no real central authority (or, at least, not a powerful authority). Roman Catholics contend that having a supreme Bishop, in this case the Pope, keeps authority centralized and keeps church doctrine from going astray. This is a very powerful argument, however, Eastern Orthodoxy has no Pope nor do they have a highly centralized authority. The provinces are autonomous, for the most part, yet a case could be made that the Orthodox Church has stayed closer to their tradition than the Roman Catholic Church has stayed to their tradition.

    The question is, what makes Anglicanism so prone to stray from tradition and from biblical orthodoxy?
     
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  8. Anna Scott

    Anna Scott Well-Known Member

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    I have reminded Catholics (a number of times on CAF) of how well the Eastern Orthodox have remained faithful without a Pope.


    Well, Sean, that is the million dollar question.

    I think the liberal social agenda, which can move at lightening speed, found an opening, a weak point somewhere---and once in, "went viral"--eventually infiltrating leadership. Sadly, most of us never saw it coming.

    Peace,
    Anna
     
  9. highchurchman

    highchurchman Well-Known Member Anglican

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    The Romanists may well claim that Anglicanism has lost its orthodoxy, it isn't true , to my mind at least!
    How-and-ever,We have yet to agree on what Anglican Orthodoxy is? To Bishop Ken , it was the faith of the first thousand years! This is what most Anglican Catholic or Traditionalist scholars would agree with! I've mentioned it before, when I was younger it used to be called the Anglican, Canon of Faith. Revelation, Scripture and Seven Councils. The canon was copied on to a poster and displayed in the Church porch. This was virtually affirmed by Anglican Saxon Synods before the Conquest.. It was accepted during the middle ages and continually reaffirmed during and after the Reformation.It was even accepted by the First Parliament of Eliza. Archbishop Laud in the Debate with Fisher, said that General Councils accepted by the whole Church should be agreed by Anglicans as infallible.(If I remember aright!) Even Field, who everyone without exception, as far as I can tell, said he was a Calvinist, agreed for Anglicans the Seven Ecumenical Councils were the norm.Interestingly, while the Canterbury Communion doesn't seem to teach the Canon of faith any longer, it hasn't in fact totally dropped it by rejecting it. It is belief in the apostolic faith that is the measure surely? Canterbury has simply lost it! But Anglican orthodoxy still stands !

    AS for Rome? Its center of orthodoxy? Is that the papacy? Which one, at the last count via Google, I counted four! In the area where I live there are two bodies of Romans , one is the Holy Roman Church stemming from Trent and the other is a group Pius Xth, Society! This latter is more Roman than the RC's.. In the next County there is a group stemming from the last century named the Old Roman Catholic Church! Are we really supposed to take these people seriously? The question is, how orthodox is Canterbury?

    If we read John Evelyn's diary for March 1687, (Everyman's Edition.) He refers to the New Trent Church! In arguments with Romans, Anglicans and Separatists used to ask papists, "Where was your Church before Trent?" It was always claimed that the Holy Roman Church was a breakaway from the Apostolic Church and was in essence a New Church."The New Church of Trent" It was no better than the Calvinists sects that abounded at that time! It was Laud and the Anglican Church that restored the Roman Confidence, by pointing out that though Rome had erred, she had not left the Church, simply added to the faith! Other additions have followed over the last two hundred years.
    We have to get use to things as they are, neither Canterbury nor Rome are pillars of orthodoxy! Orthodoxy, as I understand it is right teaching and Anglicanism in its wider teaching is still faithful unto Revelation!

    Anna!
    What I'm trying to say is that whilst the Anglican base is reducing in size, it is the faith that matters, it is being continued in smaller groups and we should be working for unification, not simply with Rome, but amongst Anglicans and with Orthodoxy!
     
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  10. Anna Scott

    Anna Scott Well-Known Member

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    highchurchman,
    I appreciate your comments---certainly an interesting analysis of "orthodoxy." It's good to hear from the vantage point of one residing in Britain.

    I think from the vantage point of those of us living in the U.S., dealing with all the issues in The Episcopal Church, orthodoxy does not look so grounded.

    I agree that orthodoxy still exists in Anglicanism. However, there are departures in many areas of the "Apostolic faith," and we have leaders who are embracing these departures.

    When you consider the same-sex issue, where is this headed? Will the Sacrament of Marriage be changed? Will an additional Sacrament be added? These are serious questions when measuring liberal Anglicanism against the Apostolic faith.

    Peace,
    Anna
     
  11. highchurchman

    highchurchman Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Anna!

    I like your comment ' in The Episcopal Church, orthodoxy does not look so grounded." To be honest in the UK, we are not thick on the ground either and the ACC, in which I serve is looked a an American Church! To me this is neither here nor there and doesn't matter a lot. The fact is that if we lose the Apostolic faith, we lose everything! The leaders who lose the faith are no longer within the Church for very practical reasons, they don't hold to the Revelation of Christ!

    As for the same sex issue, my own opinion is that it will win through, people have been won over to it, by if not experience,but by the practice being white washed in the press and on tv. It has become the norm.
    There will be an attempt to change things, our policy is to simply say openly and oftimes, not here thanks. Marriage is between man & woman. In other words to stand fast in the teaching!
     
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  12. Anna Scott

    Anna Scott Well-Known Member

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    highchurchman,
    I agree the same sex issue isn't going away, and Anglicans are not alone in dealing with the issue. Even the Catholic Church suffers from an infiltration and the Pope will have his hands full in the years to come.

    I agree that if we lose the Apostolic faith, we lose everything. Though, the very ones pushing the "same-sex union/ordination" agenda are claiming the Bible as their source; and they will argue they have not departed from the Apostolic faith--as impossible as that seems to me.

    All this leads us back to your original question: Where does authority stand in the Canterbury Communion?

    We are seeing the role of Tradition tested in the dialogue regarding what constitutes Apostolic teachings, and it seems the Anglican view of the "Episcopate" is changing. So, I'm not sure how to answer, with any certainty, where authority in the Communion stands.

    Peace,
    Anna
     
  13. Robert

    Robert Active Member

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    I think that one could argue that because Rome has a supreme bishop and a strong central authority that is the reason they have fallen to doctrinal errors as well as less tasteful problems. In fact I think that this opinion is at the heart of the disagreement between the RCC and the Eastern Orthodox Church. I would also caution that if we use either Rome or the East as some kind of measuring stick than much would need to change in Anglicanism.
     
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  14. Scottish Monk

    Scottish Monk Well-Known Member

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    I agree with you--somewhat.

    Point One: I found in my own Bible study that I became more focused upon interpretation and commentary, than on Scripture. I was reading more and more words from scholars and fewer words from Scripture. My solution was to give away two book cases of commentaries and study aids.

    Point Two: I try to avoid the slogan from an old ad campaign--"I'd rather fight than switch." Usually a photograph of a smoker with a black eye accompanied the ad slogan. It is much easier to follow your heart and switch--even to solitude, if need be--than be the cause of disruption to worship among the believers in the body of Christ. In many ways this is why the central focus of prayer, music, and the Eucharist are the best liturgy for my old soul.

    And I think announcements can be very disruptive!

    My two cents worth.


    ...Scottish Monk
     
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  15. Gordon

    Gordon Well-Known Member

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    A man after my own heart Scottish Monk, I too don't bother too much with commentaries and study notes these days I found it was getting in the way of really really reading and praying the Bible. After all when God is talking to you through the scripture directly why bother with an interpreter?

    My commentaries and study notes only come out when I am doing study for a specific purpose.
     
  16. highchurchman

    highchurchman Well-Known Member Anglican

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    "it seems the Anglican view of the "Episcopate" is changing." (Anna Scott.)

    There's only one Church as I understand things, that is the One, Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church and Anglicanism is, or was, that part in the British Isles. As the A/ B of Canterbury said, (roughly,) we have no doctrines of our own, simply the doctrines of the Church! It was Doctrine that Christ revealed to us, as S. Jude tells , the Catholic Faith. It is what makes us what we are, if we lose it or abandon it , surely we cease to become Anglicans. Anglican is, or was a synonym for catholicity!
    The real trouble is that the ancient faith is not being taught by many of the Bishops and priests, some don't know and others don't care.It is they who cease to be Traditional Anglicans and should be thought of as NEO Anglicans. When I was on C/A, on the subject of Anglican Catholic Teaching, I was criticised by someone, he didn't give his name or title and who put forward nothing else but Romanism and said he was an Anglican Bishop. A C/A, leader said that I should respect him as such and accept his teaching! I asked his name and details ,he refused to give them and asked that I accept his word. When I wouldn't, C/ A suspended me because I said that the bishop (?), was in great error. I was shocked at my own stance and his, it it very obvious to me that we need to sharpen up our studies and our attitudes. We are to see truth through the Councils according to Laud and Kidd.
    I was quite at a loss at being a trouble maker, as I was told by the CA, official, but it was always a very forthright attitude that most of their members displayed and I can't remember any Romanist being verballed for vigorous argument! Even so I think that is what is needed.
     
  17. Scottish Monk

    Scottish Monk Well-Known Member

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    Can you recommend some resources (books or links) on the "traditional Anglican ancient faith"?

    Thank you.

    ...Scottish Monk
     
  18. Anna Scott

    Anna Scott Well-Known Member

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    Robert,
    Actually, my point was not to use Catholics in Communion with Rome or Orthodoxy as a "measuring stick" for Anglicanism; but as a comparison in how the Apostolic faith is preserved, to what extent, and to note criticisms of those within Anglicanism who seem to have departed from the Apostolic faith in issues such as creating Rites for the blessing of same-sex unions and Ordinations of unmarried non-celibates.

    I agreed with highchurchman who said, "If we lose the Apostolic faith, we lose everything."

    As I said before, we are seeing the role of Tradition tested in the dialogue regarding what constitutes Apostolic teachings, and it seems the Anglican view of the "Episcopate" is changing.

    All this leads us back to the question of this thread: Where does authority stand in the Canterbury Communion?

    That is a difficult question to answer, given recent events.

    Peace,
    Anna
     
  19. highchurchman

    highchurchman Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Scottish Monk,
    Sorry for taking so long to reply to your letter as above !

    In my experience, Anglican Books' are not printed these days so we have to haunt second hand bookshops,and even there we have to dig deeply! Luckily, I have two Sony Readers and for all their faults they enable me to trawl Google Books. It is there that we find traditional Anglican Books, they range in time from the 1600's or the English Reformation to the early 20th Century! But they cover the history an
    beliefs of nearly two thousand years.

    England & Rome. Edward Scudamore this details English & Roman beliefs especially around the Reformation Period.

    " " Dunbar. This deals very deeply in to the Business of the Papacy & the Church in England with a legal attitude or bias, but it is outstanding in detail!

    An Ecclesiatical history of Great Britain. Vol,1/8. The author is a very principled Nonjuring Primate of the 17/18th Cent. and the author is well regarded.

    A Harmony of Anglican Doctrine. W.Palmer.

    A treatise on the Church of Christ. W.Palmer.

    The Apostolical Jurisdiction. W.palmer

    Life of John Johnson. Thomas Brett. Another Non Juror , he has one or two books on Google.

    Of the Church, Dean Field, (Five Books in one ed.)

    Origines Ecclesiatsticae. Joseph Bingham. 10 Vols. Each can be read separately and on different subjects.

    Papalism. Denny. A marvellous book , a dissertation at lengthon the question of Papal Claims.

    An Account of Church Government. Thos., Brett. Non Juror.

    The Councils of the Church. E. B. Pusey.

    The Church of England a portion... "

    =============================================================================================All of these books are obtainable from google and can be kept on your computer or an E-Reader. Some can be got in a printed form from Amazon, or whoever!

    It is an eye opener, to see how our theology has been let go and in my mind the Anglican Church is in affect a western Orthodoc Church! There is on other book which I would recommend and that is Lauds Discussion. It deals with Roman &Anglican relations during the English reformation, but shows clearly the Anglican Beliefs on both Mary & the Councils. But they've to be sought after!

    Interestingly, Laud was murdered by a Presbyterian Parliament in 1646, unable to find him guilty of any wrongdoing, in a religious sense they passed a vote in the commons to execute him!

    If I can be of any further help?
     
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  20. Anna Scott

    Anna Scott Well-Known Member

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    highchurchman,
    Thank you so much for the resources! Very helpful.
    Anna