The right way to understand the Blessed Virgin Mary

Discussion in 'Theology and Doctrine' started by Toma, Jul 3, 2012.

  1. Toma

    Toma Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Brethren,

    How do you view the role of the blessed Virgin called Mary, in the history of the Church and of salvation?

    One thing that drives a wedge between many Christians and Rome is the latter's honour of Mary, which has reached high levels. Instead of hymns to God, most traditional (English) Masses I have attended conclude with an "Hail Mary", or "Hail Holy Queen" or "Hail Queen of Heaven" or "Hail Star of the Sea", etc.

    Though I have no proof, I tell you that priests in this archdiocese always extol the Virgin. What to do when you get to church early? Ask Mary to guide your prayers! What to do duringthe Consecration? Beg Mary to give your prayers to Jesus! Who is the first person you address in prayer-time, after making the sign of the Cross? Generally-speaking: Mary, who is the door or portal to Christ. The rector of the cathedral once non-chalantly said, to us catechumens: "oh, the Marian element is essential" - essential to what?

    Rome justifies all this by the Annunciation/Incarnation, the events at the marriage of Cana, Christ's delivering Mary to be the Beloved Disciple's mother, and of course various 'ancient traditions' - none of which have a basis in history, except that they're claimed to have been orally passed down (and thus not entirely provable).

    Rome says that the woman clothed in the sun, standing upon the moon, and surrounded by twelve stars upon her head (in the Revelation) is Mary. None of the Fathers professed a belief in this, so far as I can tell. The only Fathers who wrote on that mysterious book, saw the Woman in the Stars as the Church.

    So, any ideas?
     
  2. nkygreg

    nkygreg Member

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    Wow! are you opening a can of worms? I stated it as a question because of the nature of this forum. If you were over on CAF, they would be looking for a couple pieces of lumber. Mary seems to be the stumbling block of all that start the Journey to Rome. I know I was/am there. It is a very touchy subject. There is writing or evidence that first century believers held Mary in a special place. Now I doubt if it is such regard as it is today. It is/has become a stumbling block for me. There is something about Mary. There is a place in any Christians heart about her willingness to accept such a calling. Jesus must of had a special relationship with his mother as any of us do with ours. She provided the flesh and Jesus probably looked like his mother. Now before you think I'm going to follow the traditional RC Marian theme, I am not. The Dogmas of the Assumption and Coronation of Mary are relatively new. RC Dogmas (for the unknowing) are things you must believe, because the Church decreed it, under penalty of damnation. That is tough and lands me in the camp of being an RC heretic. I will wait and see where this thread goes before any more comment.
     
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  3. Toma

    Toma Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Thanks for the reply, nkygreg. :) We really shouldn't be afraid of opening cans of worms. This culture already suffers from weakness, cowardice, and an inability to express unique beliefs. Tolerance and multiculturalism are not bad things of themselves, but when they become goals without any purpose other than tolerance, it is dangerous for the truth.

    Now, the Lord Jesus Himself denied a special relationship to/with His Mother, saying that those who hear His words and do them are His mother, His brother, etc. - He also never actually called Mary "mother", but rather "woman", which is what He called the Samaritan woman at the well (among others).

    To be fair, Rome only defines the Immaculate Conception of Mary and the Assumption of her body into Heaven as Dogmas. We don't necessarily have to believe the 'coronation'. The I.C. is more important than the Assumption because of its relation to Christ.

    One of the reasons I left CAF and began to find problems with Catholicism is this very issue. The readiness of some (usually very nice) members to scorch me in a funeral pyre when I started "slandering our mother" with my endless questions, was very saddening.

    I am only asking for help understanding the way others see this, not necessarily as an assault but as a quest of discovery.
     
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  4. Symphorian

    Symphorian Well-Known Member

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    My personal view is summed up rather well in a sermon given by Mark Frank (one of the Caroline Divines) in a sermon given on the day of the Annunciation of the BVM:

    Give we her in God's name the honour due to her. God hath styled her blessed by the Angel, by Elizabeth; commanded all generations to call her so, and they hitherto have done it, and let us do it too. Indeed, some of late have overdone it; yet let us not therefore underdo it, but do it as we hear the Angel and the first Christians did it; account of her and speak of her as the most blessed among women, one highly favoured, most highly too. But all the while give Dominus tecum all the glory, the whole glory of all to him; give her the honour and blessedness of the chief of the saints, Him only the glory that she is so, and that by her conceiving and bringing our Saviour into the world we are made heirs, and shall one day be partakers of the blessedness she enjoys, when the Lord shall be with us too, and we need no angel at all to tell us so.

    The English BCP's retained a handful of Marian feast days and we sing/say the Magnificat as part of Evening Prayer.
     
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  5. Toma

    Toma Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Beautiful... thank you for that, Symphorian! :)
     
  6. Andrea

    Andrea Member

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    Yeah in my church there is a special area if you want to venerate Mary. Most don't go. We say a hail Mary when her feast day comes which we always celebrate at Wednesday Mass. What one thinks about Mary is completely up to you. No one will bother you either way.
     
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  7. Scottish Knight

    Scottish Knight Well-Known Member

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    There's been a couple other threads on Mary here before:

    http://forums.anglican.net/threads/what-are-your-beliefs-about-the-blessed-virgin-mary.109/

    http://forums.anglican.net/threads/...s-and-sisters-or-is-mary-the-ever-virgin.113/

    Nice quote Symphorian, this could be a summary of my view too. Great! saves me writing :p

    I'd also agree with Remembrance in that the biblical evidence denies Mary has any special mother role now.
     
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  8. Scottish Knight

    Scottish Knight Well-Known Member

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  9. Scottish Monk

    Scottish Monk Well-Known Member

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    Symphorian...

    I very much like the quote from the sermon given by Mark Frank. Thank you for sharing.

    *****

    I hope you do not mind, but I googled a bit and found an interesting essay available for viewing online.

    Dorman, M. (2000). Andrewes and the Caroline Divines’ Teaching on the Blessed Virgin Mary. [Paper for the Ecumenical Society of the Blessed Virgin Mary, Project Canterbury.]. Retrieved Tuesday, July 3, 2012 from http://anglicanhistory.org/essays/dorman3.pdf

    The Mark Frank quote you shared above appears in Dr. Dorman's paper (p. 10). If I read her footnotes correctly, she cites the following as the source for Frank's quote.

    Frank, M. (1859). The Sermons of Mark Frank, D. D., Vol. 2, p. 50. Oxford.​

    For those wishing to purchase copies of Mark Frank's sermons for their personal shelf, reprints can be purchased from Amazon.com: Vol. 1 and Vol. 2.

    [​IMG] [​IMG]


    ...Scottish Monk
     
  10. Anna Scott

    Anna Scott Well-Known Member

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    From the thread entitled: What are your beliefs about the Blessed Virgin Mary?

     
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  11. Toma

    Toma Well-Known Member Anglican

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    I apologise; I did not realise there was already a topic on this subject...

    Thank you for your straightforward answer, Anna... I realise that our views are often at odds, and I am never the charitable one... so I ask your forgiveness: a sister in Christ just like the Mother of God.

    We can shift to a discussion of whether the Woman of Revelation is Mary, though! :)

    One thing Anglicans can be sure of with regards to intercession is that the Saints are interceding: because they love God and they love us with the burning and undying love of eternity. To ask them (and Mary) seems rather an insult; it's like asking for a drink of water from someone who is already giving you a glass full of it.

    Now, with regards to the most blessed woman who ever lived, there are some counter-weights on each side to the Revelation story:

    I have read somewhere that Epiphanius bishop of Salamis wrote in his Panarion (often called Against Heresies) that Mary is the woman of revelation. There aren't too many Fathers on revelation at all... but most seem to say the woman is the Church.

    HIPPOLYTUS of Rome (235)

    Treatise on Christ & Antichrist, paragraph 61


    By the woman then clothed with the sun,” he meant most manifestly the Church, endued with the Father’s word, whose brightness is above the sun. And by the “moon under her feet” he referred to her being adorned, like the moon, with heavenly glory. And the words, “upon her head a crown of twelve stars,” refer to the twelve apostles by whom the Church was founded.

    VICTORINUS of Pattau (303-304)

    A really beautiful interpretation by Victorinus, that mysterious writer...

    Commentary on the Apocalypse of the Blessed Apostle John: On the twelfth chapter, paragraph 1
    METHODIUS of Olympus (311)

    He wrote a work modeled on Plato's Symposium, but instead of some lustful pagan men, it's ten Christian virgins discussing various topics. One, Thekla, speaks about revelation in her little book. In Chapter 5 Methodius has Thekla speak of the woman clothed with the sun as "our mother", which is ambiguous, but in chapter 6 this is confirmed to be the Church.

    Chapter 5
    Chapter 6
    Chapter 7
    Chapter 8

    GREGORY "the Great" of Rome (604)

     
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  12. Toma

    Toma Well-Known Member Anglican

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    I've just edited it to make it more about the Woman of Revelation, so this thread is a little more justified. :)

    Adam, Anna, and all who reply: please pray for me and the Franciscans of Halifax as we go into and continue the annual retreat, this one being about Revelation ...

    Now you see where my inspirations come from... but trust me, these Franciscans are very gentle, so any anger is just me speaking. :p
     
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  13. Symphorian

    Symphorian Well-Known Member

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  14. Anna Scott

    Anna Scott Well-Known Member

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    Are you now part of the Franciscans of Halifax?

    You accused Monastics of being cowardly in this thread: "Anglican" Monasticism?

    Now you are going on a retreat with the Franciscans of Halifax??

    Also the Franciscan contemplative nuns have a close connection with the Blessed Virgin Mary.

    Franciscans of Halifax, Contemplative Life
    "The contemplative nuns relive and perpetuate in the Church the presence and work of Mary."

    Aren't you arguing against such things in this thread?

    Would you clarify your position on Monastics and the "presence and work of Mary" in the Church?
     
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  15. Toma

    Toma Well-Known Member Anglican

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    No, I am not. My best friend is a friar in the order, and he ordered me to come to their retreat... on pain of execution, he said... :)

    Indeed I did, but that doesn't stop me from loving individual persons under the unfortunate sway of the ideal. I tell him monasticism makes no sense, and he tells me to **** off, and we laugh...

    The retreat basically consists of the priest explaining Revelation chapter by chapter, with some silent times. By nature, a retreat is a moving back from the humdrum of daily life and the bustling world, and then going back into it, refreshed and renewed. This is a good idea, and isn't monastic by necessity.

    The two nuns (Patricia and I forget the other one's name...) are hardy old women, and indeed are gentle ladies in the way you might imagine the blessed virgin was when she was alive. It's difficult to dislike talking with such sweet people, even if their chosen way makes no sense.

    Only a wide-eyed fundamentalist zealot would actually refuse to talk to people because the were monks or nuns!

    Please refrain from using condescension in references.
    -Admin

    Christ manages shines through us all, even if we try to cover Him up with our own hatreds...

    I am not against anything in this thread specifically, as it was a set of questions and not anything like a debate.

    On Monastics: in the essentials, unity - in the smaller things, charity. In the essentials, they are human beings just like me and there's no reason to avoid or disdain them because of their weird idea that they need to be 'set aside' and consecrated in order to be fully Christian.

    Any woman can live and perpetuate the work of Mary, that's fine, but it depends on what they mean by the 'presence' of Mary, hehe. I think all women have their greatest model in Mary, after the Lord Jesus. That doesn't mean she's the Woman of Revelation, or this or that or the other thing. ;)
     
  16. Toma

    Toma Well-Known Member Anglican

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    The priest overseeing the retreat said that since Biblical language uses 4 much in the same way as it does 7 (i.e. to represent fullness), the four main interpretations are probably all generally correct. There are four cardinal directions representing all the ends of the Earth; just so, the various interpretations of the Woman are: Israel, Mary, the Church, and all Humanity (4)

    Of course this same priest identified the Four Horsemen of the first Seals as historical metaphors: the white horse, bringing no ill effects, is Adam, man sent to subdue the Earth - the red horse and black horse are the beginnings of war/murder (Cain & Abel) and greed/injustice (focused on by the minor prophets, especially Amos) and the pale horse "Death" is the bondage of sin & death, apparently winning the moment before Christ conquered - because immediately after the pale horse appears, the righteous dead appear and the great earthquake (Christ's death) happens.

    If this historical vision is true, then there's no way the Woman in the Sun (appearing 6-7 chapters later in a different context) can be Mary, since so much else comes after the Incarnation, yet it happens 'before' in the narrative of Revelation...
     
  17. Anna Scott

    Anna Scott Well-Known Member

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    Didn't you just give an extensive apology for insulting people? Once again, you are calling the idea of Monasticism "cowardly."

    What hatred are you talking about? You mentioned anger in an earlier post. Do you feel anger or hatred?

    Anna
     
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  18. Gordon

    Gordon Well-Known Member

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    Hi Anna,

    I don't believe you or I will ever make sense of anyone who throws the word "cowardly" around when referring to some of the most gently and God filled people on the planet. It is really sad but all we can really do is pray that Gods understanding will fall gently into place. I honestly believe it is a way to get attention and tend not to bother engaging in it any longer. Our blessed Mother Mary and our Blessed Father Francis would just smile and say nothing.
     
  19. Toma

    Toma Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Why are we pursuing this? It isn't related to the subject of the Virgin...

    Insulting individual people is not the same as assaulting their bad ideas. A good example is the blessed Virgin; I've seen it argued on CAF that protestants 'hate' or 'degrade' or 'ignore' Mary. Why? It is merely because they find the idea of consecrating themselves to her, or recognising her as Queen of Heaven, to be both hurtful to their souls and just pointless. The extreme dislike of the idea should not equate to dislike of the people who believe it. I should have clarified that! Sorry...

    My hatred stems from the fact that any people are so brainwashed as to think that not every human being is called to live a 'monastic' life, but only a few special 'consecrated' people. Sounds like the Pharisees, to be honest, and my anger and hatred are directed toward the bad idea and corruption, not to the actual individuals. They need friendship and love as much as I do... and they're entitled to anger at me if I believe something stupid and refuse to repent of it.

    Again, I can keep apologising (with absolute honesty) for being too forward, but evangelical people do have a tendency to not consider peoples' feelings or respect ... :blush:
     
  20. Toma

    Toma Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Friend, Francis was not the placid, bleached 19th century statue with rosy cheeks that he's made out to be. He was a blunt Italian merchant's son, and that straightforwardness is to be deeply admired. His abstract love for 'lady poverty' is disconcerting to some, but at least he cared. Standing naked in the town square of Assisi to make a statement about greed and the gospel is not smiling and saying nothing.

    I often think Francis' original intent was not monastic at all, but a broad Christian ideal - smiths continued at the smithy, carpenters at the woodwork, and weavers at the loom, but they lived in Community. This is the ancient Apostolic ideal, not the cooped-up cloister of the Carthusians or Cistercians.

    If you continue to believe that those who oppose your beliefs strongly enough to use harsh words are just trying to get attention, conversations will flounder quickly regardless of the time, place, or subject matter. :(

    Don't think anti-Marianists or anti-Monastics are specially blind and need God's understanding. God wants us all to be monastics in the world, but not of it! :) Opposition to superfluous piety is a work of mercy. If I didn't think so, I'd refrain from it...

    Live in serenity, if you can, but please drop the serene monastic aura. Get angry!