Politics and Religion

Discussion in 'The Commons' started by seagull, Aug 31, 2013.

  1. seagull

    seagull Active Member

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    You don't have to be CofE to be the British Prime Minister. Harold Wilson, Gordon Brown and Jim Callaghan weren't. And at one stage the leaders of all three of our main political parties were RC (one lapsed, one a convert and, the most famous, in the process of conversion). But it's not (yet) done to be an atheist. Our current leaders of the Liberal Democrat and Labour Parties "Don't have a personal God but respect those who do".

    Being CofE is still useful, in spite of a hostile media. John Major took to going to church while PM. William Hague, who once described himself as "An Anglican and an occasional churchgoer" seemed to develop "a deep religious faith" when Leader of the Opposition. And Maggie Thatcher, born and raised Methodist and married in a Methodist Church, suddenly declared herself Anglican, although she was never confirmed/received into our Church. (Still, we gave her a good funeral).

    Meanwhile, David Cameron describes himself as "the most wishy-washy sort of Anglican". Well, I respect that; at least he's being honest.

    It's interesting that in Ireland, an overwhelmingly RC country, two of the nine Presidents to date have been Church of Ireland, at a time when the RC hierarchy there was strongly anti-Protestant. And the RC President Mary MacAleese openly took communion in an Anglican Cathedral.
     
  2. Onlooker

    Onlooker Active Member

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    Lloyd George was nonconformist, of course, though he probably ended up agnostic. Ramsay Macdonald was Presbyterian, I think, as was the much underestimated Campbell Bannerman. Michael Foot, I think, was an atheist when Labour leader.

    And in passing can I express my admiration for former President Mary McAleese, a brave and splendid woman.
     
  3. seagull

    seagull Active Member

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    I agree that Michael Foot could well have been atheist, though the label wasn't so fashionable then. And John Major agnostic. On another forum the "new atheists" tried to claim Jim Callaghan, but not, I suspect, with any proof.

    I also agree with you about Mary McAleese..

    We have Lloyd George to thank for the disestablishment of what is now the Church in Wales, and I am not being sarcastic. It has fared relatively well since. And it's interesting that the Anglican Gladstone was sensible enough to oversee the disestablishment of the Church of Ireland.
     
  4. AnglicanAgnostic

    AnglicanAgnostic Well-Known Member

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    Is this the same Maggie when in Parliament criticising the church(the archbishop) complaining about her policies affecting the poor said "Some reverent people have been complaining about our policies, some might say some right reverent people"
    Lloyd George was also a non conformist wearing his hair long just to show he wasn't a military toady.

    Ps If any" pedantics" think it is wrong for you (Seagull) to start a sentence with "And" just refer them to the first sentence of 2 Chronicles (KJV):)"
     
  5. seagull

    seagull Active Member

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    I) Yes, the same Maggie!

    ii) Yes, but he was a good wartime Prime Minister.

    iii) Thanks!
     
  6. Onlooker

    Onlooker Active Member

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    The fact that so many prime ministers are not CofE may be related to the fact that so many prime ministers are not English: in fact the English are rather inadequately represented given the population. Here are the prime ministers since the start of the 20th C (of course given the interrelated nature of our population it's not always easy to say who is, for instance English and who Scots. Balfour and Blair, for example).

    Salisbury (Eng), Balfour (Scot), Campbell-Bannerman (Scot), Asquith (Eng), Lloyd George (Welsh), Bonar Law (Canadian), Baldwin (Eng), MacDonald (Scot), Chamberlain (Eng), Churchill (Eng), Attlee (Eng), Eden (Eng), Macmillan (Scot), Douglas-Home (Scot), Wilson (Eng), Heath (Eng), Callaghan (Eng), Thatcher (Eng), Major (Eng), Blair (Scot), Brown (Scot), Cameron (Eng).

    22 of whom 13 English.
     
  7. seagull

    seagull Active Member

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    I think I can make some points without going off topic! Of the "Scots" you've mentioned (I've used inverted commas because of the interrelation you refer to), Macmillan, Blair and Douglas Home were all Anglican, as, I think, was Balfour, whereas Wilson and Callaghan were English but not Anglican. (Nor was Maggie, although she claimed to be).

    Callaghan was raised Baptist, though his father was Irish RC. Blair's mother was Irish and Church of Ireland.
     
  8. Onlooker

    Onlooker Active Member

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    Yep, fair enough (although, didn't you have Blair in the RC column a few posts back? OK, as converting. Slippery customer, Mr Blair.)
     
  9. seagull

    seagull Active Member

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    Yes, but note I was careful. I said Mac, Blair and DH were Anglican.

    It was perhaps unfortunate for the media friends of the RCC that Blair joined that faith after he had resigned and been to a large extent discredited (and I write as someone who voted for him). Murphy O'Brien came up with the usual eyewash about "coming home" (I would have thought that "leaving home" was more appropriate) but another high profile politician/convert, Anne Widdecombe, expressed her decided reservations.

    The people I know who have "moved to Rome" all seem to be very needy, and, unfortunately, liable to be anti-Anglican, which most (cradle) English RCs are not. But to be fair, the people I know who have moved in the other direction often seem to have similar views about their former church.
     
  10. Lowly Layman

    Lowly Layman Well-Known Member

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    in the us, 11 of the 44 presidents have been episcopalians, more than any other denomination. the ranks include washington, jefferson, madison, monroe, and FDR.
     
  11. AnglicanAgnostic

    AnglicanAgnostic Well-Known Member

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    That's interesting! How did Washington and Jefferson rationalise their independance actions with the pledges to the King that must have been in their prayerbooks or liturgy of the time?
     
  12. Lowly Layman

    Lowly Layman Well-Known Member

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    healthy doses of John Locke and Thomas Paine I guess. they likely believed that the king had betrayed his office prior to their "rebellion" and did not deserve their allegiance
     
  13. Stalwart

    Stalwart Well-Known Member Anglican

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    The argument is pretty much outlined in the Declaration of Independence: the King betrayed his people (in the America) by not protecting their rights in the same way he had in the UK, in addition to which, actually adding abuses and exploiting those same people while leaving the UK citizens unaware of the disparity.
     
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  14. BrethrenBoy

    BrethrenBoy Member

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    Jefferson was deist. He wrote his own version of the gospel removing all the supernatural parts and leaving just the moral teachings.
     
  15. Lowly Layman

    Lowly Layman Well-Known Member

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    privately he had inclinations to christian deism. but officially, he lived and died an active member of the episcopal church