As we all know, South Carolina has 5 Anglican bishops. We are under the jurisdiction of at least as many Orthodox bishops. Of course, there also more than one Catholic bishop. First, there are those under Rome: the Latin Rite, the Eastern Rite bishops, and those of the Ordinairiates. There are the Catholic bishops that do not recognize Rome: Old Catholic, Polish Catholic and others. Methodists have UMC, AME and probably others. Lutherans have ELCA and LCMS. I'm sure there are others. What sense does this make to the outside world: other Christians and those who might enter our churches. In the end, we are on the ark of life. What everyone sees in the apostolic churches is a mess that few would join. This is even without considering all the arguments over social and political issues. At very least, Christian bishops in the same diocese should meet on a regular basis.
The United States of America--home of denominationalism, cousin of consumerism. Similar to cherry picking the grocery specials at several community grocery stores. I share your concern on this. However, here in the U.S. of A, I really do not think there will be any changes to this trend in the foreseeable future. Church-hopping is alive and well, and encouraged by various clergy leaders. ...Scottish Monk
Where I live, the bishops do at least attend the consecrations of the others. The TEC, UMC, and Catholic bishops, & the main Orthodox priest in the area, are on very good terms. This is good for the community.
Mark, Very thought provoking. I think sometimes we, Christians, are so busy arguing with each other; we forget that we are called to love God with all our heart, soul, and mind-----with all our strength; love others as ourselves; and spread the Gospel. The Great Commandment Mark 12 (ESV): 28 And one of the scribes came up and heard them disputing with one another, and seeing that he answered them well, asked him, “Which commandment is the most important of all?” 29 Jesus answered, “The most important is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. 30 And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ 31 The second is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.” 32 And the scribe said to him, “You are right, Teacher. You have truly said that he is one, and there is no other besides him. 33 And to love him with all the heart and with all the understanding and with all the strength, and to love one's neighbor as oneself, is much more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.” 34 And when Jesus saw that he answered wisely, he said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” . . . . Mark 16 (ESV): 15 And he said to them, “Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation. _____________________________________ Sadly, the "outside world" doesn't always see the love of Christ in us. That is truly a tragedy, and I am humbled and saddened by my own sin in this regard. Peace and blessings, Anna
The problem is that Rome considers Anglican ordinations to be invalid. There's no use scheduling meetings with a "Church" who you just believe to be a rather large "Christian community". The local Catholic Franciscans here meet with Baptist pastors and Anglican rectors, but there's no way they consider those people truly ordained by God via the Church. It's nice to dream about unity, but it won't happen so long as Rome insists on her exclusive version of history.
We don't have to go outside Anglicanism to find bickering among Christians. Just read the threads here.
Have to agree! there seems little point in pursuing ecumenical dialogue with the Roman church while they hold to their views. Hwever this shouldn't stop work with other churches wo share the same core beliefs. Also it's good to remember that while there may be official views and positions within denominations, often individual bishops, ministers and ordinary Christians do not fully hold to their denomination's positions, hence where offical dialogue may have reached an impasse, individuals can often transcend it
Our problems didn't start with the Reformation, nor with the East-West Schism, nor with Arianism... they started at Pentecost. God gave sinful man a great responsibility, and we've bickered over it ever since. Only He searches us and knows us in the heart. In that, we can be gladdened. The Orthodox churches ordain Anglican priests who convert, too. We must seek after spiritual calm, for the Holy Spirit glorifies the feet who bring the Gospel of peace. It's just a shame that 1 billion and 200 million Christians (Rome & the Orthodox respectively) refuse to consider a community of 80 million brothers of Christ to be a true Church.
Ok in my city, the UMC bishop, TEC bishop, Catholic bishop, and main Orthodox priest are on excellent terms. They frequently team up for important events in the area. Some have even been known to attend the consecrations/installations of the others. There's none of this weird internet-style theorizing and a lot of good will & hard work. It's for the good of the community and for bringing the Gospel to those who live here. It can be done. I see it every day.
While it is the style of modern Roman bishops to disobey their own historical Councils - especially Trent - and have ecumenical prayer meetings, attend protestant colleges, and take ecumenical theology courses (like the Catholic archbishop of this city did in Geneva), it was not the way of Rome for many centuries. Traditionalists are rising up in the Roman Church again, attending the Latin-Mass and becoming very conservative priests. They will be the bishops in 20 years. You will not see this good-will of Vatican II for very much longer, I think. This is just a neutral vision of how it's going. We should focus more on the Orthodox and others who do not demand submission to tyranny before they accept us in love. We should all meet on a regular basis, but don't hold out hope for those who say they are infallible.
Well, I was just sharing my experience - which involves churches of 100+ years old, two or three blocks away from each other, whose leaders work together when they can. It's bigger than the local Catholic presence and VII, which is why I mentioned the other leaders. It's not ecumenism in the ordinary sense of that word; it's trying to show the community that the churches here are presenting the same Savior to the city. We explain our convictions and non-negotiables internally, but we don't really parade them through the streets of an increasingly godless city. We have a good thing here, and I share it because it speaks directly to Mark's thoughts.
Thanks to the spirit of Vatican II, yes, but no thanks to (and in direct opposition against) Trent, Vatican I, and the unanimous teachings of the Popes from about 1300 right up to 1960. There's really nothing to debate about here; I agree with you in principle about dialogue and all that, but in light of a traditionalist resurgence in Roman Catholicism, and all the ecumenically-minded bishops getting old, I just don't see it lasting. That is very good, especially presenting the same Saviour on a united front. Behold how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to bash Satan together in unity!
Yes, this is what I am suggesting should and does happen. As you indicate, this is NOT about ecumenism. It is about cooperating to do God's work as brothers and sisters in Christ. We have no need to argue in public nor to try to entreat Christians from one church to another. There is much more important work to do. I'm reminded of a novel about this subject, The Shepherd by Joseph Girzone. It's been over 20 years, but his ideas are still new and controversial. I'm sure that his heart is warmed by the bishops in your city and in others.
You can say "no thanks," but that doesn't change the fact that there are ecumenical dialogues between Anglicans and the Catholic Church, and other Churches as well. Even setting ecumenical efforts aside, it is possible to work together for good, despite our differences.
Reminded me of that circle metaphor, you have Christ in the centre, the more we walk toward him the closer the points of the circle are and at the same time the more we walk toward each other (the other points) the closer to the Centre we get.
This is not aimed at any specific posters, but is said in general: There are different topics being discussed here. Ecumenism is generally an attempt at overcoming divisions of the distant past, recognizing that churches are not separate religions. Charity and cooperation with other Christians are worthy goals (& not really optional). But I think that Mark's original point specifically addressed the scandal of multiple bishops in one geography. This scandal presents a weakened witness to the world. "See that you all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid. Moreover, it is in accordance with reason that we should return to soberness [of conduct], and, while yet we have opportunity, exercise repentance towards God. It is well to reverence both God and the bishop. He who honours the bishop has been honoured by God..." - St. Ignatius, Epistle to the Smyrnaeans This is an extremely early testimony to the place and authority of the bishop. But, as Mark pointed out, there are now many bishops over a single place. When even some of them recognize their mutual call and/or responsibility to the people in their geography, all Christians there will benefit and the proclamation of the Gospel will be strengthened. When there is a natural disaster here, we don't need a dozen small organizations of Christians to form in the same 3-block radius. One solid combined effort is stronger. When churches whose doctrines are 98% identical are preparing to plant new churches, they don't need to build them next door to one another while leaving other communities unreached. Similarly, when faith withers on the vine in the city, it is beneficial for the local Christian leaders to gather and find ways to respond with greater unity. At the very least, they can pray for each other and value the ministries of the others. This is much easier said than done, but it can be done. And it can happen apart from traditional "ecumenism" and related pitfalls.