John Wesley

Discussion in 'Non-Anglican Discussion' started by Rev2104, Oct 2, 2017.

  1. Rev2104

    Rev2104 Active Member

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    As a non- Wesleyan I know very little about he taught. I read a brief over view of it and some of it was really intriguing, I will properly dig a little deeper into his teachings sometime. Like a lot of things I doubt it will be soon. So I had couple basic questions.
    Did he teach that one could be so sanctified that you would stop sinning? If so is that not contray to what scripture teaches?
    And out of curiosity he never wrote that one should not drink? That all spun out of the holiness movement? Am I right on that?
     
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  2. Peteprint

    Peteprint Well-Known Member Anglican

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    I am a great admirer of Wesley, but I am not as knowledgeable about his teachings as I would like to be. Those in the Holiness tradition who believe it is possible not to sin would quote the verses "go, and sin no more" (John 8:11), and "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." (Matt. 5:48). They would say that Christ would not have said such things if they were not possible.
     
  3. Peteprint

    Peteprint Well-Known Member Anglican

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  4. anglican74

    anglican74 Well-Known Member Anglican

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    I'd like to learn more about Wesley... any other interesting materials would be helpful.

    I do know that although he committed schism, his brother Charles Wesley the famous musician was not a supporter of the Methodist schism, and was firmly opposed to his brother on this.. The vagaries of ecclesiastical history.
     
  5. Peteprint

    Peteprint Well-Known Member Anglican

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    I found this interesting. Wesley arguing against leaving the Church of England. In it he writes:

    "WE look upon England as that Part of the World, and the Church as that Part of England, to which all we who are born and have been brought up therein, owe our first and chief Regard."

    http://anglicanhistory.org/wesley/reasons1760.html
     
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  6. Lowly Layman

    Lowly Layman Well-Known Member Anglican

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    I do not agree that he committed schism, though I say his followers did.
     
  7. anglican74

    anglican74 Well-Known Member Anglican

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    My history is not good at all on that aspect of world events... how did the schism from the Church develop, and who were the ringleaders? Please enlighten
     
  8. outlawState

    outlawState New Member

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    Although many dissenters including those angling for reform of the (protestant) CofE under the Act of Uniformity along presbyterian lines existed during the reign of Elizabeth I, schism was given real impetus during the civil war (1642–1651) and interregnum, when independents and presbyterians came to the fore in large numbers, and the CofE became populated with numbers of presbyterian clergy. Calvinistic baptists also increased comparatively in seventeenth century as contrasted with Arminian baptists (the original baptists), as former presbyterians adopted baptist principles.

    Although the restoration of Charles II led to the restoration of episcopalism, and the vicious persecution and final expulsion of the presbyterian element within Anglicanism in England, presbyterians and other dissenters in the form of Baptists, Quakers and Presbyterians continued thereafter, gradually beginning to build their own chapels and separated from the CofE entirely. So by the time of Wesley 1703 – 91, separatists were a long established part of English national life.

    Ringleaders? Obviously the likes of George Fox, Bunyan etc. There were plenty of objectors to vestments and to episocpacy in the CofE during the reign of Elizabeth I, steming from calvinistic influences, including William Fulke, Thomas Cartright, John Foxe, Robert Brown etc.
     
  9. anglican74

    anglican74 Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Yes but here this is about the Methodist schism in particular
     
  10. outlawState

    outlawState New Member

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    Methodism spliting from the CofE was surely inevitable. First John Wesley ordained preachers outside of CofE authority, and with power to administer the sacrements, especially in USA. Secondly he licensed women preachers contrary to the word of God and CofE articles. Methodism made itself offensive to the CofE, perhaps even far more so than presbyterian churches that had never directly challenged CofE authority in that way. There was surely no way to remain in the CofE for methodism.

    By the end of the 18th century, the CofE was itself beginning to replicate methodist techniques, including being born again and extemporary preaching, cf. especially the examples of Legh Richmond and other "low" churchmen, and to no little effect in respect of evangelical success.

    I guess the end of the 18th century was a bit like the protestant reformation in the 16th century leading directly to the Catholic counter-reformation. Methodism, and the publications of some CofE writers at around that time, produced a lively reformation in parts of the CofE.

    As for "perfection," of course it is quite impossible to conceive of it in mortal man. The most we as mortals can do is to "labor and strive" 1Ti 4:10.
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2017
  11. outlawState

    outlawState New Member

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    And one could suppose that Anglicanism and Methodism became spiritually united in the single person of Elizabeth Wallbridge (1770-1801), the "Dairyman's Daughter," a Methodist who sometimes attended Anglican churches, and who post - death, by reason of the story of her life and death by clergyman Richmond, was probably responsible for more conversions that anyone actually living in that era after Wesley.

    Check out her story in the "Annals of the Poor." A book that everyone should have read at least once in their lives.
     
  12. Rev2104

    Rev2104 Active Member

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    How applicable is his theology to those outside of his church? I read a few of his sermons by now and I do not see nothing questionable in it? Is there any marks of heresy in what he touch, or even heterodoxy?
     
  13. outlawState

    outlawState New Member

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    I think that he may not have subscribed to the strict Calvinistic / Augustinian doctrine of orighinal sin, whereby per the 39 Articles, "Original sin standeth not in the following of Adam, (as the Pelagians do vainly talk but it is the fault and corruption of the Nature of every man."

    I think for Wesley, he was rather more of a pelagian, i.e. that original sin did mainly constitute the following of Adam. I personally regard this as the biblical perspective. It's not that our nature became corrupted by Adam, but that it was impossible for humanity to resist the "sin that was in the world" that came by Adam. A sinful nature comes from sinning, not from Adam.
     
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