Group for discussing the new book

Discussion in 'Faith, Devotion & Formation' started by anglican74, Sep 7, 2018.

  1. anglican74

    anglican74 Well-Known Member Anglican

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    I feel like there are a number of quotes from the new book (the nowell Catchechism) that are a surprise to me:

    For instance:
    As simple as that!

    Why have so many tried to doubt this connection between regeneration and baptism, when it's so plainly stated right there?


    Does anyone else find interesting passages that are worthy of note...? THanks!
     
  2. Peteprint

    Peteprint Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Sounds good to me! :)

    In a similar manner, the catechism from the Shorter Prayer Book informs us that in baptism we experience:

    "A death unto sin, and a new birth unto righteousness. for being by nature born in sin, and the children of wrath, we are hereby made the children of grace."
     
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  3. anglican74

    anglican74 Well-Known Member Anglican

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    So then why does anyone doubt what our doctrine is? It's not even a matter of perspective...
     
  4. Peteprint

    Peteprint Well-Known Member Anglican

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    I think it is one of the weaknesses of Anglicanism, the excessive inclusiveness that has characterized the Church since Elizabeth's time. I am sure that I have complained on the forum before about how Anglicanism seems to allow for almost any belief and, even where the formularies are quite clear, no one enforces them. It pains me that when discussing Anglicanism with others, I have to qualify almost everything that I say Anglicanism is. It's the price we pay for originating with a state church that wanted to be as comprehensive as possible.
     
  5. anglican74

    anglican74 Well-Known Member Anglican

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    But I mean like, the doctrine is right there, is it not? Where is the comprehensiveness... I see a lack of discipline for the last 50 years, which the weak prelates mask under this made-up term of being comprehensive... When I read doctrines, I don't see the weak Anglicanism that we are being told about
     
  6. Peteprint

    Peteprint Well-Known Member Anglican

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    I agree; the basic doctrines are right there, and easy to see. But they are not enforced. Look at what is happening in England. The Church clearly states its opinion regarding marriage between a man and a woman, but there are "pride" flags being flown from cathedrals. Like the Colenso affair in Africa in the 1860's, and the situation with Pike in the 1960's and Spong in the 1990's, even bishops can pretty much say anything and nothing happens.
     
  7. anglican74

    anglican74 Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Then it seems to me that it’s just a shortage of discipline, a disease of recent times... if memory serves, John Whitfield was disciplined harshly,... as was John Wesley


    It just seems the recent bishops (yeah) are failing to defend Anglican doctrine; NOT that there is some kind of question about our doctrine itself

    Like, look at the passage on Holy Communion

    “it is enough to be once baptised, as to be once born :  But as we need oft to be fed, so is the Lord’s Supper oft to be received”

    Or
    “Ma. What is the heavenly part and matter removed from outward senses?

    Sch. The body and blood of Christ, which are given, taken, eaten, and drunken of the faithful, in the Lord’s Supper ;  only after a heavenly and spiritual manner, but yet verily, and indeed”
    :o

    That’s so great, and so cleanly put
     
  8. Peteprint

    Peteprint Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Yes, it is. Very straightforward. :)
     
  9. Tiffy

    Tiffy Active Member Anglican

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    Perhaps because the issue needs to 'unpacked' to be fully understood. Truth may seem to be simply stated, but it may be 'truth' in a highly condensed form, which would require explanation in view of every various circumstance.

    The circumstances I have in mind here would be the different aspects of truth regarding 'regeneration', (developmental or immediate), between infant baptism and Cognizant Adult Baptism. Both immediately confer grace, but do they confer 'regeneration' in the same 'immediate' way. I would say not.

    In Adult Baptism, baptism of an unbelieving adult, would be illegitimate, and in such a case 'regeneration' cannot be assumed. Baptism in cognizant adults, therefore must follow the hearing and comprehension of the gospel resulting in Faith. Regeneration may then be believed to have taken place.

    In Infant Baptism, the temporal aspects are reversed. Baptism precedes faith, (in the individual being baptized), consequently regeneration will consist of a more developmental process within the soul of the developing 'child of God', not immediate and complete, as in the case of an Adult who looks to Christ for Salvation and has submitted and committed to Him as Lord. Thus the need for Confirmation for those who have grown up within the church, under The Covenant.

    In my own case I do not consider that I became truly regenerate until some time after Confirmation; some years after in fact. Thus is the grace of God operating, not according to human rites and ordinances, but according to God's Holy will, and in God's good time.
     
  10. anglican74

    anglican74 Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Isn't that basically a Baptists theology? Namely, that we must "do" something to get the ball rolling; It's basically Pelagian, where our first choice is of utmost importance; such as in this case 'hearing' and 'comprehending'

    The way I understand our theology, it is essentially Augustinian and God-centric; where it is not our choice of God, but God's choice of us, that is the 'first action'

    Even in baptism it's that God chooses us, not we that choose God (for that's how baptists think, with their 'altar calls'); and we are as powerless in that initial choice (deep in sin) as the infant is in the hands of the priest... Baptism is something 'done to us', not something 'we do', right?

    Sure, we must own and 'step in' to our faith as we get older, in Confirmation; but that is our response to God; that is step 2; whereas step 1, God's initial choice and regeneration, took place before that, and not by us

    Obviously adults can lose the faith after baptism, we're not Calvinists.... THis is addressed in our Article 15, "Of Sin after Baptism."
    "After we have received the Holy Ghost, we may depart from Grace given, and fall into sin, and by the Grace of God, we may arise again, & amend our Lives."
     
  11. Tiffy

    Tiffy Active Member Anglican

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    Actually, though I see your point, we are in agreement here rather than at odds. An Anglican view on 'regeneration' need not be Pelagian or even Arminian much less Calvinistic predestinist, single or double.

    St Paul seemed to be of the opinion, (and we Anglicans are an Apostolic bunch), that a person needs to hear the Gospel and understand its promises and demands, before one can be 'regenerate'. To be sure one can follow immediately upon the other, so as to appear simultaneous, but it is not possible to fully understand anything before one has been informed. Rom.10:14, 1 Tim.2:7, 2 Tim.1:11, Gal.3:2-9. Even the father of our faith Abram, needed the gospel preached to him before he obtained saving faith.

    This is why in every Anglican church service the communion is always preceded by the ministry of The Word, in that (1) we confess our sins, in the general confession. (2) We are informed that God absolves us of sin. (3) we hear the lessons and Gospel. (4) We hear them explained by a minister, (preacher and servant of The Lord). (4) We are invited to receive sacraments which physically symbolize our 'ingestion' of God's Holy Word, resulting in or in remembrance of, 'regeneration'. There is no room in any of this sequence for 'works of the flesh'. It is entirely 'of God'. We are just willing and grateful recipients.

    Absolutely right! But the point needs to be made that infants are not baptized by the Anglican church on any assumption that they understand anything at all, yet. That is something that we believe God will take care of in due course. We however do require understanding in most Adults before baptism is administered.

    We should not make the mistake though of assuming that the Anglican church baptizes only infants. Even unbaptized believing Adults are also required to be baptized before they are permitted to 'handle holy things'. The Lord's supper is reserved for those who have obediently submitted to our Lord's command to his disciples to link baptism with understanding, in those who become disciples: Matt.28:19-20.

    One again, I am in full agreement with you here. One of the most pernicious heresies of the 21st century church is the so called OSAS movement, which confuses an 'Assurance of Salvation' seemingly to make perseverance unnecessary, with the need for 'The perseverance of The Saints', an essential ingredient of the true faith.

    Scripture is clear when it says we may 'Neglect such Great Salvation', even potentially to the point of losing what we once possessed. Heb.2:3. Which takes us right back to the need for us to continually hear the 'good news' expounded, week by week, via a systematic unfolding of scriptural truth, so as to nurture and more firmly establish, the growing seed of faith.
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2018
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  12. anglican74

    anglican74 Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Speaking of the other quote Tiffy, does it satisfy your earlier questions about the presence of the Body and Blood of Christ in the holy sacrament?

    Sch. The body and blood of Christ, which are given, taken, eaten, and drunken of the faithful, in the Lord’s Supper ;  only after a heavenly and spiritual manner, but yet verily, and indeed
     
  13. Tiffy

    Tiffy Active Member Anglican

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    Verily and indeed, in a heavenly and spiritual manner, of course. :yes:
     
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  14. anglican74

    anglican74 Well-Known Member Anglican

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    What does everyone think of the exposition of the "give us this day our daily bread" that says,


    I never heard anyone make those connections!
     
  15. Peteprint

    Peteprint Well-Known Member Anglican

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    I never heard the latter one. I don't think the prayer carries that connotation at all. Bread is the staff of life, and Christ is also identified symbolically with bread (the bread of life, the living bread that came down from heaven). Of course we should be content with a simple and healthy diet, but I don't believe that is the best lesson we can draw from this portion of the Lord's prayer. :)
     
  16. Tiffy

    Tiffy Active Member Anglican

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    Daily Bread:
    Very few people actually make their own daily bread. Bread is a community commodity in that the final product in one's hands represents the work of the sower of the seed, the tender of the crop, the reaper of the stand, the thresher of the wheat, the miller of the grain, the transporter of the flour, the maker of the dough, the baker of the dough and the buyer and seller of the bread.

    St Paul advised that those who are unwilling, (not I stress unable), to contribute to society by their efforts, should not eat of the produce of that society. 2 Thes.3:10. It is well to remember that in Rome at the time this was written, bread and circuses were free.

    Many servants are involved in providing our daily sustenance and Christ, the Bread of Life, came to us as a Servant. It behoves us therefore to appreciate the connectedness of community and our dependence upon each other for daily bread, as a metaphor of our daily dependence upon God for our Salvation.

    Contentment with sufficiency is an indication of a spiritual character. Envy, greed, gluttony, excess, covetousness etc. are indications of spiritual immaturity. But to suggest that banqueting in itself is sinful would be nonsense, since heaven itself is metaphorically epitomised by a banquet and beautiful things are not in themselves a cause of sin, it is the coveting of them for oneself with the objective of denying them to others which is sinful.
     
  17. anglican74

    anglican74 Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Well I wasn't quoting the biggest lessons from the exposition; which are listed as you mention, namely grace, life, etc. But those are common deductions

    Less common is the deduction that we must work by the sweat of our brow, and not be covetous of our neighbor...

    But also less common is the deduction that we must not aspire for extravagance, but be comfortable with the simple and sufficient! I do think that's a valid exposition, although you disagree... There must be a reason the passage does not say, "give us this day our daily cakes"... and that must be, because we should not expect, nor live our lives, aiming after cakes and sumptuous and unhealthy extravagance, but rather ask the Lord for the healthy, the simple, and the sufficient
     

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