Discussion in 'Pastoral Resources' started by Anna Scott, Apr 9, 2012.
Why pray to the forum or your friend when your sick?
Look at how it started: "Mary, mother of God, pray for us". Look at where it has gotten in the Orthodox Church. In the Akathist to the Holy Virgin they pray, among other things, a sort of Litany to the Theotokos with petitions such as:
Rejoice, redemption of the tears of Eve!
Rejoice, height inaccessible to human thoughts:
Rejoice, depth undiscernible even for the eyes of angels!
Rejoice, Thou through whom creation is renewed:
Rejoice, Thou through whom we worship the Creator!
Rejoice, assurance of those who pray in silence!
Rejoice, bridge that conveyest us from earth to Heaven!
Rejoice, wonder of angels sounded abroad:
Rejoice, wound of demons bewailed afar!
Rejoice, Thou Who surpassest the knowledge of the wise:
Rejoice, Thou Who givest light to the minds of the faithful!
Rejoice, propitiation of all the world!
Rejoice, good will of God to mortals:
Rejoice, boldness of mortals before God!
The hymn goes on and on like this, and takes quite a while to get through all the prayers addressed to her. All this began with the "innocent" notion of asking "blessed Mary, ever-virgin" to pray for us, and slowly turned into mystical poetry - then, who knows what? If this doesn't begin to approach idolatry or worship, what on Earth does?
We ask friends to pray for us. We do not pray to them. Prayer is invoking a person or persons who are not immediately present. There's a huge difference, and this distinction must be made. I don't pray to my Christian friends when I ask them to pray - I simply ask them, for they are here with me.
This is about the Rosary, not your guys prejudices. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the Rosary or asking the saints to pray.
When you ask the forum to pray or your friend, you are praying to them. Praying is making a request, protestants have distorted the meaning of the word
The Rosary concludes with the prayer "Hail, Holy Queen - mother of mercy: our Life, our Sweetness, and our Hope". Do you call your friends your very life, the sweetness of your existence, and the hope of your whole person? I certainly hope not!
"I pray thee" does indeed mean "I ask you" - in early modern English. We speak modern English. When 90% of human beings say "pray" today, they mean PRAY, not ASK.
As I say the meaning is distorted by some to make it seem evil. It is just more rubbish from those who want things their way
So there's no problem in calling a creature our life and our hope?
Remove the Salve Regina, and you don't have the rosary. Thankfully, the Anglican Rosary is not a petitionary prayer of invocation to a saint, but a holy blessing of God.
My first objection is that you ascribe certain omnipotence to saints. How do you know the saints that are departed can hear your prayers? Can the African Christians hear the prayers of the European Christians unless they are close by? If we can communicate with other souls, then why can't I telepathically communicate with Christians in Asia? (They do have souls right?)
Second, while prayer is partly about requests we make to God, that is not its sole purpose. When Jesus begged that God the Father should take away that "cup" he could not bear, Christ was making a request. However, in the end, he did bear the cup. By prayer, we are children talking to Our Father In Heaven about our concerns in our lives and in the lives of our brothers and sisters in Christ. However, we are also conforming ourselves to the will of the Father as Christ Jesus conformed himself the the will of the Father when he died on the cross. Prayer is about talking to God about our concerns, but it also brings us into conformity with the will of God so that we can say "Let your will be done!" By asking a friend to pray with you, you and he are going directly to the Father to be conformed more and more to his will.
Since we aren't sure exactly how the saints can hear us in heaven, why not go to Christ - since the scriptures did call him OUR MEDIATOR. The scriptures, however, did not however tell we to pray to any saints. If a saint is in the presence of God and can "deliver our petitions," are they really in need of being conformed more to God and his will? On the contrary, it is us on this earth that need to be conformed more. Why not use every second to talk to God Our Father? He delights in hearing his children speak to him. However, when I ask someone here on this earth to pray with me, it is for their own good to speak and be conformed into God's will.
Lastly, I don't think I pay Mary or any other Saints with any disrespect. In fact, I do them the greatest homage by looking at where their lives pointed towards. They lived for Christ! In the same way, I look at what their lives are about and try to imitate them. If I was in heaven, the greatest things anyone can do for me is to see my life and see how it reflects Jesus. People pay homage by seeing what the saints' lives were about and look towards there as well. It was done on the cross two thousand years ago. Every saint that ever lived, is living or will lived has pointed to that cross. I shall do the same
Edit: I hope not to digress on this topic but to be Protestant does not mean you can't be Catholic
It always seems to come back to the their prejudices time and time again...
Hey gang is there a chance that those of us who do use the rosary or prayer beads can talk about it without all the negative input about whether we should do it or not?
Technically, a prejudice is just a pre-judgment. Everyone comes to a debate or situation with a pre-judice. It's not a bad thing.
You know that's impossible, brother. For me, to just sit back and cease to care that fellow Christians are offering that sort of prayer would be gross negligence. The Lord Himself told us to talk to those who seem to be offending against the Gospel or against us - not really for the sake of pride or combat, but out of love.
There is indeed something wrong with it. Article XXII plainly states that "The Romish Doctrine concerning Purgatory, Pardons, Worshipping and Adoration, as well of Images as of Relics, and also Invocation of Saints, is a fond thing, vainly invented, and grounded upon no warranty of Scripture, but rather repugnant to the Word of God."
The Scriptures forbid communication with the dead. They also tell us there is only one mediator between God and men: Jesus. Yet, we all know the vacuous argument of Romanists regarding asking a friend to pray for you (this is somehow taken as having relevance to Jesus’ role as the sole mediator between God and men). The fact that Jesus role as mediator is essentially and necessarily different is lost on those who use this facile argumentation, for Christ has a grounds upon which to stand as a mediator that no-one, including the Blessed Virgin Mary, possesses. This has been explained many times, but somehow this simplistic argument is regurgitated every now and then as if no-one has ever responded to it.
Some might make the claim that James 5:16-18 tells us that the prayers of certain people are more effective than those of others. Of course, what James 5 tells us is that "the prayer of a righteous man has great power." From this, it seems, you can create a direct proportion statement, so that the saints, being perfected, have the greatest prayer power co-efficient possible. But please notice, there is nothing in James 5 about dead people praying for us. Nothing at all, in fact, just the opposite. One can recall the examples of Abraham, Moses and Elijah who interceded with God, which is, again, quite true. But it is likewise irrelevant since, obviously, they were all alive at the time of their intercession with God.
Back in the days of the Reformation a common complaint made by the Reformers was that Rome’s defenders were sophists, men who tried to look wise while promoting the most amazingly incoherent statements. Little has changed over the centuries. You take the statement that a righteous man’s prayers have great power, which is said only of the living, transport this into another context, attach it to the Blessed Virgin (assuming her alleged sinlessness), and then somehow it follows right from Scripture that her prayers would have the most power! Then, you throw in the other saints, who now have more power (because the prayers of a living righteous man have great power), and tie it all up with another reference to James 5, and voila! the Roman position. Not compelling? Of course not. It really isn’t meant to be. It is meant to have just enough appeal to it to keep the person who wants to believe it in a state of faith. This is then followed by the constant false appeal to inter-Christian prayers as if they are relevant. "Most Protestants are quite comfortable asking for prayers from other Christians on earth; why do they not ask those saved saints who have departed from the earth and are close to God in heaven? After all, they may have passed from this world, but they’re certainly alive — more than we are!"
That sounds so nice, but it is double-talk. Passed from this world = dead to us. Alive to God? Of course. Spiritually alive? Completely. But the prohibition of contact with the dead is specifically in the context of people living on earth seeking to have contact with those who have "passed from this world." This kind of argumentation leaves the prohibition of contact with the dead meaningless and undefined. Further, there is a substantive, clear difference between asking a fellow believer to pray for you, and the prayers that are addressed to Mary and the saints. I have never asked anyone to save me from the wrath of Jesus, nor do I pretend that fellow Christians are dispensers of grace or that their prayers will obtain the forgiveness of my sins, and yet that is what we read in this famous Marian prayer:
Perhaps it was an oversight but you left off the very beginning of the prayer:
Priest: Blessed is our God, always, now and ever, and unto the ages of ages!
O Heavenly King, The Comforter, the Spirit of Truth, Who art everywhere and fillest all things, Treasury of Blessings and Giver of Life, Come and abide in us, and cleanse us from every impurity, and save our souls, O Good One.
Reader: Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal have mercy on us. Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal have mercy on us. Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal have mercy on us.
Glory to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit, both now and ever, and unto the ages of ages. Amen.
O Most Holy Trinity, have mercy on us. Lord, cleanse us from our sins, Master, pardon our transgressions, Holy One, visit and heal our infirmities for Thy Name's sake.
Lord have mercy. Lord have mercy. Lord have mercy.
Glory to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit, both now and ever, and unto the ages of ages. Amen.
Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be Thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us, and lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one.
Priest: (says the exclamation)
Now lets look at Ikos 1 (we can go through each stanza if you like):
Priest: An archangel was sent from Heaven to say to the Theotokos: Rejoice! And beholding Thee, O Lord, taking bodily form, he was amazed and with his bodiless voice he stood crying to Her such things as these:
Rejoice, Thou through whom joy will shine forth: Christ is the Joy and of course He became man through the BVM
Rejoice, Thou through whom the curse will cease! Again Christ will end the curse but of course in order to accomplish His mission according to God's Divine Plan He must be born of the BVM
Rejoice, recall of fallen Adam: See above.
Rejoice, redemption of the tears of Eve! See Above.
Rejoice, height inaccessible to human thoughts: Yes how can our thoughts truly penetrate and comprehend the mystery of that which cannot be contained being contained in the womb. How can we describe what it means to be this close to God. I don't know about you but have you been overshadowed by the Holy Spirit in this manner?
Rejoice, depth undiscernible even for the eyes of angels! Even the angels are in awe of God's Divine Plan and the BVM role.
Rejoice, for Thou art the throne of the King: No comment needed.
Rejoice, for Thou bearest Him Who beareth all! As obvious as the nose on your face.
Rejoice, star that causest the Sun to appear: No comment needed.
Rejoice, womb of the Divine Incarnation! No comment needed.
Rejoice, Thou through whom creation is renewed:No comment needed.
Rejoice, Thou through whom we worship the Creator! Can't worship the God Man unless He has been given Birth by the most highly favored one.
Rejoice, O Bride Unwedded!
I really don't know what to make of your incessant need to attack other Christians. Are you insecure? It is very strange practice.
I thought the point of the thread was to discuss whether we pray the Rosary and our reasons for doing so or not. As per the OP:
Mercy, the uses of & associations with the rosary tie right into the whole issue at hand.
Even one bit of idolatry makes an otherwise good prayer into something monstrous. Should we accept a prayer that glorifies Ahura Mazda just because it mentions Jesus as well? One must point out the evil despite the good. I'm insecure standing next to a man who professes one God & one Mediator between God and man, while also whispering his rosaries & invocations of saints who are granted powers beyond imagining.
You don't attack a Christian by telling him that he's doing something against the law of God. I consider it a hard and sad thing to have to do in the age of the Reformation, but it's not an attack - at least, I don't consider myself attacked when my beliefs are being challenged. People need to lighten up about that.
Actually Mercy the OP was asking about the Anglican Rosary not the Marian Roman Rosary...
Then OC decided that this post was appropriate (which I don't think is appropriate) and went down hill from there...
Now what that has to do with the OP about the Anglican Rosary is beyond me...
I know Anna and a few who posted back in April last year on the original subject and they no longer post here because of this type of response from some people, specifically the type of tone used that I have highlighted in bold above.
That is not true.
I only posted here after Joan Lucia-Treese and historyb said that they prayed the Roman Rosary which is an idolatrous prayer. However, it's not surprising that you find my intervention inappropriate.
When Christians fail to rebuke each other because their beliefs are so amorphous as to encapsulate anything, is the day the Church dies. This sort of victimisation leads you nowhere, Gordon.
Ah, I see. Though in fairness to OC, the Marian Roman Rosary was brought into the discussion, and some were recommending it. OC's post was not immaterial to that. We can disagree as to the appropriateness of the tone.
I wasn't aware that there was an Anglican Rosary. Is it entirely Christ-centered or does it also include Marian prayers?
Here in lies the reason for my post - Joan Lucia-Treese is a Benedictine Oblate of the Anglican Tradition and the recognition of Marian Prayer is part and parcel of some parts of the Anglican tradition including the Benedictines and the Franciscans. Joan Lucia-Treese has made it known on this forum that she is a Benedictine Oblate, so your rebuke of her Anglican tradition was inappropriate and uncalled for. In my opinion you have overstepped the mark, but she was too much of a gentle Christian lady to say anything about it.
Further to that - I am a Franciscan in the Anglican tradition and Marian prayer is also part of our tradition at certain times of the year, and I personally take exception to a fellow Christian referring to my beliefs as paganism.
Here is one link to the story behind the Anglican Rosary (prayer beads), as it says in few of the earlier posts the prayers you use are entirely up to you they can be Christ-centered, Marian prayers, a mixture of both or simple used for contemplative reflection and meditation. I quite often use the prayer Francis of Assisi used "My God, my all" or the Latin version of it "Deus meus, et omnia".
The word of God, as well as the 39 Articles of religion, condemns the idolatrous practice of praying to dead saints. It's not part of the tradition of the Protestant Reformed Church of England, unless by "Anglican tradition" you mean 19th century Tractarianism and its rapprochement towards Romanism.
I have nothing against Joan Lucia-Treese, historyb or yourself for that matter. You fail to understand that being charitable towards one another doesn't mean to condone everything, especially practices that violate the word of God.