Catholic bishops: support for LGBT; ACNA bishops: condolence for LGBT

Discussion in 'Navigating Through Church Life' started by anglican74, Jan 25, 2021.

  1. anglican74

    anglican74 Well-Known Member Anglican

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    The two groups of Bishops issued their respective statements nearly within a few days, and they were different enough that it really made me think..


    Catholic bishops sign statement to LGBT youth: ‘God created you, God loves you.’
    https://www.americamagazine.org/fai...olic-bishops-tyler-clementi-foundation-239815
    -I could quote further, but the title says it all doesn't it


    ACNA Bishops Wrestle with Language over Homosexuality
    https://virtueonline.org/acna-bishops-wrestle-language-over-homosexuality

    "We cannot guarantee to Christians who are same-sex attracted, or to anyone, that their own desired future will occur if they follow Christ. We can promise that in Christ, there is a secured future of love, forgiveness, and power. And we must continue to teach all people that to follow and imitate Jesus is to live a life of full and glad surrender which daily requires us to take up our cross (Matthew 10:38)."

    "Jesus and Paul also extol, and themselves exemplify, the model of virginity for life and spirituality (2 Corinthians 11:1-2). They establish Christian celibacy as a normal, while less common, vocation of abstinent singleness for the sake of the kingdom (Matthew 19:1-12, 1 Corinthians 7:1-40).

    "in the Bible and in the history of Christianity, we do not find the people of God defining themselves or forming relationships and communities according to sexual desire and attractions. Instead, relationships and communities are defined in terms of commonly shared beliefs, prayer, commitments, and service."

    Designations such as "gay Christian," or "same-sex attracted Christian" are simply not what the spirit of the New Testament offers as a way of defining a Christian or his/her community. We are not ultimately "gay Christians" or "same-sex attracted Christians;" we are Christians. We are men and women whose lives are hidden in Christ (Colossians 3:3). Our journey of transformation is a pilgrimage in which we count all things rubbish for the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus (Philippians 3:8). This is why the only name commended in Scripture to take over our identity is "Christ-in-one," (Christian).

    We commend the usage of "Christians who experience same-sex attraction."
     
  2. bwallac2335

    bwallac2335 Well-Known Member

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    One group of Bishops preach the truth. One not so much
     
  3. Tiffy

    Tiffy Well-Known Member

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    The title may say it all as far as you are concerned, but which of these two statements do you agree with, or do you agree with both or neither of them in reference to LGBT Christians?

    "God Created you" Agree : Y/ N / Don't Know ?
    "God loves you" Agree : Y/ N / Don't Know?

    Or would you consider LGBT 'Christians' or 'same sex attracted Christians', to be an oxymoron?

    I agree that "It says it all", if by all you are meaning, really that is all that needs to be said, but it's not really clear to me what the all is that you are alluding to when you say "The Title says it all".
    .
     
  4. bwallac2335

    bwallac2335 Well-Known Member

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    If you read the two texts one is a clear teaching on Christian Orthodoxy. The former is not but it contain some truth and a lot of feelgoodism. The latter one by ACNA bishops also states the same truth that God loves you and God creates you but does not shy away from teaching the truth about sexuality
     
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  5. anglican74

    anglican74 Well-Known Member Anglican

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    God creates human nature where we have, say, five fingers on our hand, and yet there are those who are deformed with six fingers... whose body is against nature, and they deserve our condolences
     
  6. Tiffy

    Tiffy Well-Known Member

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    It would seem according to scripture that we are all wonderfully made when knit together by God in the womb. Ps.139:14, Job.10:11.

    Are you wishing to suggest that God dropped a stitch or two when he was 'knitting' some people you consider 'deformed' and therefore 'against nature'?

    On the other hand, if the natural process of foetal development is disrupted by external or internal factors, resulting in a deformed human being, would that be their own fault and could they legitimately be blamed for being 'unnatural'?

    Just because some people do not conform to a standard 'norm', (none of us really do, we are each unique), that surely does not make them 'unnatural'. If nature produced them, surely they would be 'natural'. Would being 'natural'. i.e. not 'against nature', necessarily mean we would all have to be identical according to the 'natural' pattern that you are suggesting is the only correct one?
    .
     
  7. anglican74

    anglican74 Well-Known Member Anglican

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    we should recognize that they are developmentally disrupted, and deformed, and offer our condolences, I agree
     
  8. Tiffy

    Tiffy Well-Known Member

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    Does that answer the other questions though, or even that one?
    .
     
  9. bwallac2335

    bwallac2335 Well-Known Member

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    My wife only has one hand. Born that way. From what I gather it would be highly offensive to offer our condolences to her or anyone like that. Also the word deformed would be really offensive. She says God made her this way and she is happy this way.
     
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  10. Tiffy

    Tiffy Well-Known Member

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    There is something rather patronising about sympathy based upon an assumption of ones own sense of physical, mental or spiritual perfection and a notion that one naturally possesses one or more of them. Luke 18:11-12. The notion that "before either patronising or criticizing someone, one should walk a mile in their moccasins", is a good guide. Empathy is better than sympathy and sympathy is better than indifference, but even indifference is better than hostility.

    Sadly there are some who even consider themselves good Christians who have nevertheless a quite hostile and judgmental attitude to sinners and those they consider 'unnatural'. Disability has unfortunately always been a major reason for social exclusion by others even in the most 'religious' of communities. John 9:1-5.
    .
     
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  11. anglican74

    anglican74 Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Right, and so anyone who feels same-sex attractions is also a perfect apple of God's eye and therefore to limit or restrict them in their inclinations would be unjust... hence the modern awful LGBT movement, which the ACNA bishops reject

    This idea that "I'm okay, you're okay, we're all okay" is an artifact of the modern broken culture, where we don't look at nature, we don't look at ideals... Clearly in God's created order of nature, having two hands is how human beings are supposed to be; and being either celibate or married to the opposite sex IS how human beings are supposed to be... I'm not willing to abandon those categories just becaus they hurt someone's feelings
     
  12. bwallac2335

    bwallac2335 Well-Known Member

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    Big difference. She knows she is different but having one hand is not sinful. If it was we would have to do something about it
     
  13. Tiffy

    Tiffy Well-Known Member

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    No one is asking or telling you to abandon anything though are they. They are just asking us to stop interfering in other people's business between themselves and God and the person they love. We have no mandate under New Testament principles to 'cast a stone'. Unless they personally ask our advice on 'who they should fall in love with', we should refrain from offering unsolicited advice to them, and leave it to the Holy Spirit. Jer.31:34.

    I don't suppose you would accept unsolicited advice from them, would you? So return the compliment and give them some slack.

    There but for the grace of God go we.
    .
     
  14. anglican74

    anglican74 Well-Known Member Anglican

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    stating the natural order of things is not telling anyone what to do, it is merely observing a scientific, visible, and/or theological fact.... What is, is; the way things are, is the way things are

    What people do what that is up to them, but there are real consequences of going against "the way things are," and God as well as the Church through the ages has explained the transgressions and what happens to those who make them;

    having one arm is not a transgression, it is just a birth defect which we can help the person with; cohorting with members of your own sex is a cataclysmic transgression which it would be the height of charity to help people with
     
  15. Tiffy

    Tiffy Well-Known Member

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    That it is a 'cataclysmic transgression' in your opinion is based upon your understanding of scripture, and you are free in The Spirit to apply that knowledge to the way you live your life and the choices you make, as are we all. If some people do not want our 'charity' though, however 'high' we may deem it, it would still be an imposition to thrust it upon them uninvited by imposing our standards of behaviour on them against their wishes. If God does not impose His standards upon them against their wishes, then neither should we. 2 Cor.3:17.

    And how do you imagine we can 'help them"?
    .
     
  16. bwallac2335

    bwallac2335 Well-Known Member

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    If they don't want our active help with dealing with a sinful affliction at the very least we maintain and uphold the Biblical Truth that way when the time comes that they might want our help they will see the truth and we never swerved from it.
     
  17. Tiffy

    Tiffy Well-Known Member

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    Quite so!

    And since we are all sinners who are in need of redemption by the one and only Saviour, who died for us while we were yet still sinners, there may even be some aspects of the sin which clings so closely to us that they could help US with too. Heb.12:1-2. That particular swerving from the truth, is not the only possible sin of which the human race is sadly and universally prone, even for those who think they have never swerved on that particular one. There will be plenty of others that were insufficiently swerved from, I guess.
    .
     
  18. anglican74

    anglican74 Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Either the LGBT people can change their minds, as those afflicted with LGBT have been seen to often do,
    or as the Acna bishops write,

    "Jesus and Paul also extol, and themselves exemplify, the model of virginity for life and spirituality (2 Corinthians 11:1-2). They establish Christian celibacy as a normal, while less common, vocation of abstinent singleness for the sake of the kingdom (Matthew 19:1-12, 1 Corinthians 7:1-40).
     
  19. Tiffy

    Tiffy Well-Known Member

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    Do you think it would ever be easy or even possible for you to change your mind concerning your attraction or otherwise to the opposite sex?

    Would you have difficulty in doing so?

    Why then do you assume it would be easy or even possible for some gay people to 'change their mind' over who they find sexually attractive?

    Could it be merely an assumption that everyone has the same 'natural' inclination to want to mate with the opposite sex? Hormones and their affects on behaviour are notoriously complicated.

    Apart from the rather obvious biological reproductive reasons for these instincts being implanted in human beings, "go forth and multiply", being the first commandment mentioned in The Bible, there is no other reason to believe we have control over actually having instincts, only over controlling how we respond to those that we have. Some have more success in controlling them than others.

    Fear, greed, envy, fight, flight, a proclivity to scapegoating, are all natural instincts which we are called upon to curb for the sake of the gospel. None of it is easy, I'm sure you must agree.

    Be kind, cut them some slack.

    Nevertheless I think I prefer the second statement from the Bishops, to the first one from Rome, apart from the fact that we have no evidence at all that Paul was single and celebate all his life. He was a Sanhedrin member and they were usually all married. Perhaps he was a widower.
    .
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2021
  20. anglican74

    anglican74 Well-Known Member Anglican

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    I find difficult many things which other people don't find so difficult... I find it impossible to change my sex and gender, and yet many people seem to be doing so on a daily basis, so you are using outdated categories of what's "possible" or "impossible"

    Is it in your nature to be telling other people what to do?... I haven't said anything harsh or out of line with the Church or with God so , how about I'll do what I'll do, and you do what you do

    .

    Great, then we are in agreement! Huzzaah
     
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