Calvinism, the elect

Discussion in 'Non-Anglican Discussion' started by Aidan, Feb 13, 2018.

  1. Lowly Layman

    Lowly Layman Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Asked and answered, Stalwart. I gave you my reasons. You may not like them, but I don't see the point in stating them again.

    I think Rev'd William Law said it best so I'll quote him in the hopes he is more clear.
    Men have 2 choices and while the destination may ultimately be the same, the journeys could not be more different. It is more than merely you taking the high road and I taking the low road. It is a path through grace versus a path through torment and great tribulation. I evangelize because I want to spare people the latter.
     
  2. Aidan

    Aidan Well-Known Member

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    I'm afraid I must disagree , in all humility. Yes God is merciful, to those who repent and ask forgiveness, as Jesus illustrated when he promised Dismas the repentant thief that " ....this day you will be with me in paradise. God is also just and if a man condemns himself to hell eternally, then so be it. Jesus didn't promise paradise to the unrepentant man crucified alongside Him.
     
  3. Lowly Layman

    Lowly Layman Well-Known Member Anglican

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    I don't recall the destiny of the unrepentant thief being expressly revealed in the story, Aidan. But I do remember that Christ did not need them to repent and ask forgiveness when he prayed "Father forgive them for they know not what the do" for the soldiers crucifying him.
     
  4. Aidan

    Aidan Well-Known Member

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    The idea of universalism is counter intuitive to all I hold dear. Heaven is a reward for leading a Christian life.
     
  5. Lowly Layman

    Lowly Layman Well-Known Member Anglican

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    "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." -Romans 6:23

    Rewards are earned. Heaven is a free gift of God.
     
  6. Aidan

    Aidan Well-Known Member

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    Therefore heaven is earned by living a Christian life
     
  7. Lowly Layman

    Lowly Layman Well-Known Member Anglican

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  8. Botolph

    Botolph Well-Known Member

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    That is not quite as I would understand underserved grace.
     
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  9. Magistos

    Magistos Member Anglican

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    Question... What do you all think of how Norman Geisler puts it?

    1. Total depravity extends to the whole person but does not destroy the image of God in fallen human beings;
    2. Election is unconditional from the standpoint of God's giving it and only one condition for humans receiving it—faith;
    3. The atonement is unlimited in its scope—Christ died for all mankind—but limited in its application to only the elect;
    4. Grace is irresistible on the willing but does not force the unwilling;
    5. All those who are regenerate will, by God's grace, persevere to the end and be saved.
     
  10. Lowly Layman

    Lowly Layman Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Sounds like a form Calvinist soteriology that tries to make itself more palatable to lutherans and arminians, but essentially remains calvinist.

    Since I am a universalist, it does not appeal to me any more than the traditional TULIP forula.
     
  11. Stalwart

    Stalwart Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Just as an aside, William Law was a schismatic. He was certainly not a classical Anglican. He did not subscribe to the Articles of Religion, and may have also been a Pelagian.

    But nonetheless:

    So basically, Hell in your understanding is a place of temporary cleansing punishment. In other words, it is Purgatory, isn't it.

    In the Roman view, they have:
    -Heaven
    -Purgatory
    -Hell

    In the typical Anglican view, they have:
    -Heaven (perhaps with a middle state)
    -Hell

    In your view, it is:
    -Heaven
    -Purgatory
     
  12. PotterMcKinney

    PotterMcKinney Active Member Typist Anglican

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    It is essentially Calvinist but it takes into account the problem of perspective. Arminians are basically correct because they address the problems from a certain perspective, and Calvinist do another way. This way of framing TULIP takes that into account and addresses both perspectives. Thank you for sharing this.
     
  13. Lowly Layman

    Lowly Layman Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Wow, I disagree with every aspect of your post.

    Regarding William Law, I find it problematic for you to discount him as "schismatic" because he could not in good conscience swear an oath of allegiance to George I when the founders of American Anglicanism initially had to get ordained and consecrated by a non-juror bishop precisely because they too refused to swear allegiance to the England's sovereign. Using your logic, you're as much a schismatic as Law was if not more so. And since TEC, the ACNA, and oddly enough the Church of England commemorate Law (April 10th) as a priest, spiritual writer, and teacher of the faith, he seems more than adequately Anglican to anyone not named Stalwart. And as a priest in the CofE, he assented to the 39 Articles or else he would have never made it through seminary and been ordained in the first place.

    Regarding final destinations, I believe in Heaven and Hell (or, Tartarus, Hades, and Gehenna as used in the original Greek).

    Since in the first five centuries of the church, only Rome espoused the idea of eternal torment, any view that has the great mass of men burning eternally in hell is essentially Roman Catholic in origin imho. Of all the romish superstitions, I find this one to be the most insidious.
     
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  14. Botolph

    Botolph Well-Known Member

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    Our task is not to consign people to hell, but to invite them to heaven.

    schismatic
    a person who promotes schism; an adherent of a schismatic group.​

    My best reading of William Law suggests that this would be an inadequate description of him. As the Church of the Nation, there is no doubt that Politics and Piety have regularly found occasions of complexity, and various times where clergy and faithful people have stood firm rather than bending with the wind of the day.

    The question that Universalism asks us is How big is your vision of Grace? As I said earlier I do struggle with it for a number of reasons, however I also see the merits that it brings to the table. The conquering of death on the cross does mean for me that I can not rule out the possibility of salvation beyond the grave, yet I also can not rule it in. This is the age in which we are called to take up our cross and follow Him.

    Undoubtedly we are called to respond to the love of God, we are not called to respond to the fear of hell. I can tell you of the love of God, for I have encountered it, I know nothing of Hell, and trust that I never shall, not for any merit of my own, save for the redeeming love of Him who stretched out his hand on the cross to embrace all of humankind.
     
  15. Lowly Layman

    Lowly Layman Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Currently, I am reading Hope Beyond Hell - The Righteous Purpose of God's Judgment by Gerard Beauchemin. I have not gotten more than a quarter of the way through it so I cannot give a final opinion on it, but my initial feeling is that it mirrors my position pretty closely. It is available online for free in both text and audio versions here if anyone is interested:

    http://www.hopebeyondhell.net
     
  16. Stalwart

    Stalwart Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Sorry, you know we've talked plenty and I hold you in affection. Wish we had met more than just in this online context.

    That's taking things backwards. Just because we don't like what the consequences are, we must dismiss the premises? That doesn't work.

    First off he literally was in schism from the Church of England, and excommunicated. That's literally what he was, and what happened.

    Secondly, yes the early American consecrations were clearly schismatic acts, which is why they were not acknowledged in England.

    If we don't take schism seriously then anyone can schism and throw off ecclesiastical discipline, which is precisely the error that allows those who would preach error to wander with impunity today. What we need is more discipline, not less, and we need it of the kind that the Church of England once held. To be in schism was execrable, and to be excommunicated was abominable.

    Now, does this make the American Anglicanism schismatic now? No, because the English Church had accepted the American Church in the early 1800s, and entered into full communion, at which point the Americans ceased to be schismatic. We must take these things seriously.


    They also commemorate Lutherans, Roman Catholics. Nothing about states his status as an Anglican.


    That was when he was ordained. In his subsequent writings he departed from the faith of the Church of England, which is my point.


    Okay so can we say that you believe in "Hell", but mean by it "Purgatory"? I just want to have some clarity here. You don't believe in Hell as classically understood, by the early church and most of the divines, right?
     
  17. Lowly Layman

    Lowly Layman Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Please don't take my post the wrong way Stalwart. I have nothing but the highest respect and admiration for you. I was genuinely surprised that there was nothing in your post I can relate to. I don't think that has ever happened before.

    Granted, I'm more familiar with Law's works than his life but I only heard he was deprived not excommunicated, which is not the same thing. When he was deprived of his cure, he became a private tutor and writer. Doesn't fit Philip's definition of a schismatic. I haven't read where he tried to set up a rival church that did not require oaths of allegiance as Bishop Seabury did. He just held to his scruples. But if you have other information please share it.

    On the point of whether American churches remain schismatic I get your point. But since C of E has recognized and commemorated Law as a priest, it would appear, at least by that same logic, that Law, even if he was a schismatic at one time, is no longer one in the eyes of the church.

    This brings us to the thorny issue of whether ACNA is schismatic even if TEC isn't. Certainly in the eyes of TEC it is. And the last I've heard, the ABC has not formally accepted ACNA as a constituent member of the Anglican Communion. So how so you square this issue given your views on the issue?

    On the issue of Hell, as I've said already, I believe in it. I do not believe people will be eternally punished in it. Since things like purgatory and Limbo are Roman Catholic things and I am not RC, I do not believe in them.
     
  18. Anthony B

    Anthony B New Member

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    Being a presbyterian and Calvinist, I have to separate the two main forms of election. There are similarities between the camps that follow calvinism and arminianism. There are also lutherans, provisionalists, and that weird group that follows "corporate election" (whatever that is). But the historic understanding within protestant/Augustinian thought is unconditional election. I think this also lines up with the 39 articles as well.
     
  19. JayEhm

    JayEhm Member

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    Geisler seems to be a classical Arminian but confuses us by using the term 'Cal-minian.' smh
     
  20. realdocphil

    realdocphil New Member Anglican

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    Read Ephesians and Predestination
     

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