Atonement theories

Discussion in 'Theology and Doctrine' started by Celtic1, Dec 15, 2012.

  1. Toma

    Toma Well-Known Member Anglican

    Posts:
    1,402
    Likes Received:
    1,129
    Country:
    Canada
    Religion:
    Anglican
    Thank you Celtic1.

    The name of Ransom Theory sounds dubious to me - as if Satan could hold the Almighty Sovereign LORD or His creatures ransom against His will! I quite like Christus Victor as to showing up the stupidity of the Devil, however. Whatever is Patristic, let me follow that! :)
     
    Lowly Layman likes this.
  2. Celtic1

    Celtic1 Well-Known Member

    Posts:
    836
    Likes Received:
    419
    Country:
    USA
    Religion:
    Celtic Christian
    And Christus Victor is that.

    I'm not one who holds that the Fathers were always correct, but on this I certainly believe they were.
     
    Lowly Layman likes this.
  3. Lowly Layman

    Lowly Layman Well-Known Member

    Posts:
    2,722
    Likes Received:
    2,488
    Our condemnation was not for anything we had done but for what Adam had done. Our personal sins are only symptoms of the inherited sinful nature from Adam. Adam received his spiritual death sentence prior to having any children and his condemnation spread to all succeeding generations. Even if it were possible to lead a sinless life we would still be condemned for the debt of Adam's sin. To repay that debt Jesus had to right Adam's wrong. He had to be obedient where Adam was disobedient. He had to be spiritually alive where Adam and all his descendants were spiritually dead. Where Adam used sacrifices to cover his sin; Jesus became the sacrifice that would cover all. Because all men were slaves to sin, God could find no suitable sacrifice among them, and true to his word to Abraham, God provided himself a sacrifice. And, as Irenaeus put it, in Christ God became one of us so that we may be like God. In his death and resurrection, he redeemed us and liberated us from sin and death. By putting on Christ, we are no longer the condemned children of Adam, disowned by God and owned by Satan, we become New creations: the redeemed and adopted children according to the New Adam.
     
    Thomas Didymus likes this.
  4. Lowly Layman

    Lowly Layman Well-Known Member

    Posts:
    2,722
    Likes Received:
    2,488
    Maybe, I am a great fan of Anselm. But I'm enjoying working through this Christus Victor concept as well. It all seems inadequate to describe so great a mystery as the Atonement. I doubt we'll ever fully understand it this side of heaven. Thank God we don't have to fully understand it to trust in it and the one who accomplished it.
     
  5. Old Christendom

    Old Christendom Well-Known Member

    Posts:
    476
    Likes Received:
    571
    Religion:
    Reformed
    I fully hold to Penal Substitution. He indeed was punished in my behalf.
     
  6. Stalwart

    Stalwart Well-Known Member Anglican

    Posts:
    2,723
    Likes Received:
    2,563
    Country:
    America
    Religion:
    Anglican
    We've been wondering about this in the other atonement thread : what is the difference between the Substitution theory and the classic Satisfaction theory?
     
  7. Old Christendom

    Old Christendom Well-Known Member

    Posts:
    476
    Likes Received:
    571
    Religion:
    Reformed
    "Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that made us whole, and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all ... It was the will of the LORD to bruise him; he has put him to grief; when he makes himself an offering for sin ... By his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous; and he shall bear their iniquities." (Isaiah 53:4-6 et seq.)

    Penal Substitution, surely.
     
    Thomas Didymus likes this.
  8. Old Christendom

    Old Christendom Well-Known Member

    Posts:
    476
    Likes Received:
    571
    Religion:
    Reformed
    Well, the way I understand it, Anselm argued that Christ suffered as a substitute on behalf of humankind satisfying the demands of God's honour by his infinite merit. Aquinas and Calvin developped that idea and introduced the idea of punishment to meet the demands of divine justice.
     
  9. Celtic1

    Celtic1 Well-Known Member

    Posts:
    836
    Likes Received:
    419
    Country:
    USA
    Religion:
    Celtic Christian
    Surely not.

    I don't see it that way, and neither did the earliest churches who had access to the same scriptures, and neither did the church all down through the centuries, as penal substitution was unknown until Calvin.
     
  10. Old Christendom

    Old Christendom Well-Known Member

    Posts:
    476
    Likes Received:
    571
    Religion:
    Reformed
    The Ransom theory was once widely believed throughout all Christendom, a theory that made God a debtor to the devil, besides a deceiver that only pretended to pay the debt. Anselm was the first known theologian to correct this view.

    Simply observing what the churches in the past believed is not enough to establish the truthfulness of a doctrine. The Penal Substitution theory is a logical (and I would say necessary) development of the Satisfaction theory. The fact that you don't find comfort in the fact that Jesus died in your stead is baffling.
     
  11. Celtic1

    Celtic1 Well-Known Member

    Posts:
    836
    Likes Received:
    419
    Country:
    USA
    Religion:
    Celtic Christian
    Penal Substitution is abhorrent and harmful.

    I hold to Christus Victor, the view held by the church for the first millennium, until Anselm's incorrect theory. None of the views arising in the West are adequate; most are harmful.
     
  12. Old Christendom

    Old Christendom Well-Known Member

    Posts:
    476
    Likes Received:
    571
    Religion:
    Reformed
    It is "abhorrent" that God's justice is satisfied? Our God is a holy God.
     
  13. Celtic1

    Celtic1 Well-Known Member

    Posts:
    836
    Likes Received:
    419
    Country:
    USA
    Religion:
    Celtic Christian
    I have to apologize for starting two threads on the same subject -- didn't realize it until after it was done.
     
  14. Celtic1

    Celtic1 Well-Known Member

    Posts:
    836
    Likes Received:
    419
    Country:
    USA
    Religion:
    Celtic Christian
    No. It's how it is justified as defined by Penal Substitution that I find abhorrent.
     
  15. Old Christendom

    Old Christendom Well-Known Member

    Posts:
    476
    Likes Received:
    571
    Religion:
    Reformed
    What is abhorrent about it? The penalty for sin is death, this is clear.

    Christ died for our sins, in our stead, offering Himself to the Father as the perfect oblation. God's justice was satisfied.
     
  16. Celtic1

    Celtic1 Well-Known Member

    Posts:
    836
    Likes Received:
    419
    Country:
    USA
    Religion:
    Celtic Christian
    God did not need to punish, torture, and kill His Son to satisfy His justice or forgive us our sins.
     
  17. Old Christendom

    Old Christendom Well-Known Member

    Posts:
    476
    Likes Received:
    571
    Religion:
    Reformed
    Divine justice could have been conceivably satisfied otherwise but yet He sovereignly chose the ultimate sacrifice of the cross. Calvary, a stumbling block to the Jews and foolishness to the Gentiles, is God's own sacrifice of love for His elect, the perfect ransom for our sins, the perfect appeasement of God's wrath and the power of God unto salvation.
     
  18. Stalwart

    Stalwart Well-Known Member Anglican

    Posts:
    2,723
    Likes Received:
    2,563
    Country:
    America
    Religion:
    Anglican
    God needed to punish us, because we are sinful, and the punishment for sin is death. What is your answer to the fact that you deserve the death that Christ suffered? He did not deserve it, that is of course clear to anybody. But we do deserve it. What would you prefer, a Flood to cleanse the earth?
     
  19. Gordon

    Gordon Well-Known Member

    Posts:
    688
    Likes Received:
    512
    Country:
    Australia
    Religion:
    Franciscan - Anglican
    That is correct - he willingly sacrificed his Son our Lord Jesus Christ for our sins...
     
    Pax_Christi likes this.
  20. Celtic1

    Celtic1 Well-Known Member

    Posts:
    836
    Likes Received:
    419
    Country:
    USA
    Religion:
    Celtic Christian
    Correct me if I am wrong, but we all will still die. Or maybe you're exempt from it if you believe in Penal Substitution.

    Christus Victor is the obvious correct view which reflects God's character and purpose. God did not require that His wrath be appeased by inflicting divine child abuse on His Son.