Are female Holy Orders valid and is Sacramental assurance maintained?

Discussion in 'Sacraments and Liturgy' started by Tom, Jun 17, 2017.

  1. Tom

    Tom New Member Anglican

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    I have recently joined a Forward in Faith Anglican Church as I have found myself to be more Anglo-Catholic, however I still visit my previous church for worship who currently has a female priest. I know you probably have debated this issue on this forum many times before, therefore sorry if I am getting many of you to repeat yourselves. I personally disagree with female Priests and Bishops (I do not believe the Anglican Church has the authority to permit female ordination) however if they have been ordained by a Bishop are they still valid even though it may be illicit in relation to the One Holy catholic and apostolic Church? I know that the Catholic Church had female priests in communist countries when religion went 'underground' is this the same for Anglican female priests.
     
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  2. anglican74

    anglican74 Well-Known Member Anglican

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    I personally don't believe so, and many on the conservative side of Anglicanism are more and more of that mind.

    Also putting the biggest emphasis on sacramental validity is something that comes out of the Roman Catholic apologetic. To us it is much more than that. It has to do with preaching no less than with with the sacraments, since preaching from the pulpit is literally mediating God's word, it's as if God himself were speaking from the pulpit. According to some theologians it IS God speaking there, pastorally to the specific people gathered, through the agency of the priest.

    So none of the priestly functions of the sacraments, preaching, fatherhood, leadership of the church, are even conceivably accessible to someone who cannot be a father, and doesn't have apostolic authority to mediate God's word, or administer the sacraments.
     
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  3. theEpiscopalavenger

    theEpiscopalavenger New Member

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    There have been historical accounts of women in the priesthood ( some secretly involved) but I would say absolutely I'm a Anglo catholic myself and my priest is a women she is probably the holiest person I know. Not because of her words but because the way she treats others reflects her love of Christ she also approaches the altar and the mass with the most beautiful humbleness iv ever seen. I believe the Holy Spirit reveals truth progressively to us.
     
  4. Mark

    Mark Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Tom,

    Women can not be ordained. Scripture limits ordination to certain males. God has never called a woman to the priesthood. No where in scripture, which is the main way God communicates, has a woman be selected by God or the Apostles or the Church to be a priest.

    What is needed for valid ordination? Obedience to scripture is first. The foundational qualifications are listed in Scripture. Male, husband of one wife, no love of drink, etc. The Church has added education to that list. That said, I know some very good priest/deacons who read for orders. No seminary, but studied and educated by a Bishop or Dean.

    After scripture you need
    Form: words, what words are used. Proper liturgy of ordination.
    Matter: physical element
    Proper Minister: valid minister
    Proper Recipient: per scripture, not our feelings
    Intention: the liturgy purpose is to make a member of the clergy.

    Women are not proper recipients of the sacrament of Holy Orders. A Bishop can lay hand, say the words of ordination, use the oil and proper liturgy, but if he lays hands on a woman, improper recipient. Nothing happens. No sacrament, no ordination. Same if a Bishop lays hands on a child.

    So women are not clergy, period. Nothing, not our feelings or new found meanings of scripture or new teaching from the Holy Spirit changes what God has decreed in His written word.

    Were women "ordained" in history. Yes, by heretics. Those who taught contrary to the Church and Holy Scripture. We must be careful with "progressive truth". Truth is truth. God is God. Neither change. God does not change how he relates to us. We may change how we relate to Him. But it is on God's terms and laws not ours.

    Also be care with "progressive truth", far too many who hold to it, believe the Church was in error for ever how many years. The gnostics within 100 years.
    Mormons 1800 years before God/The Holy Spirit revealed the truth. Some Charismatics 1900 years. Jehovah Witnesses over 1900 years. The Episcopal Church 1973 years, give or take a year and still changing. The Church of England 1994 years give or take and the Holy Spirit is still trying to get it right by continually revealing the truth.

    For those who hold to progressive truth? Why has God allowed us to be in error for so many centuries, especially when Jesus told us he would not leave us orphans and sent the Holy Spirit?

    Women have many gifts and talents to offer the Church. God given. As do men. God in His wisdom limited ordination to certain men. If God wanted female priests He could have done so in the Old Testament. Every religion around the Jews had female clergy. Even in the day when Jesus walked the face of the earth. But God/Christ set His people apart and one way is who is clergy.

    Tom, I would read Dominus Est (It is the Lord) by Bishop Athanasius Schneider. Bishop Schneider is a Roman Catholic who lived behind the Iron Curtain most of his life. They did not ordain women. Women were used to smuggle the Eucharist around, but were never ordained. Many Catholics went decades without the sacraments as most of the priests were killed. But it never crossed their minds to go against the Word of God and ordain women. They trusted that God would deliver them. Matter of fact, when the curtain fell, the Christians behind the curtain were shocked at what had happened to the Church in the "free countries". While they stayed faithful through torture, death etc. We in the West embraced the Father of Lies because we did not want to hurt someone's feelings.

    I met a Southern Baptist Missionary about 10 years ago, who told me the persecuted Church in China is prayer for us in the West. That we will be persecuted and return to our first love....Christ. Whether it is Gafcon, the Church in Asia etc....they all look at the West as having abandoned the Scripture and loving the World more than Christ. I know we in the Continuum would like to object to that, so look at our Churches. Look at society
    and how the West is de-evolving. Read Romans 1. That is us.

    Pray, repent, preach the Gospel once given and give Christ the Glory.
    He is our only hope.

    Blessings,

    Fr. Mark
     
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  5. theEpiscopalavenger

    theEpiscopalavenger New Member

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    I will have to agree to disagree and I'm very passionate about this topic. We could debate history , theology and sacraments but we will obviously not see eye to eye. As your title says fr im assuming your a priest so I don't want to disrespect your authority.
     
  6. Tom

    Tom New Member Anglican

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    I have to agree with Father Mark on this however having only recently found my 'theological' beliefs I do not know how to approach my former female 'priest'. Can I go up for a blessing instead of communion and still attend the service, though like I said I have recently started attending a Forward in Faith church.

    Thank you for your help and comments.
     
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  7. PotterMcKinney

    PotterMcKinney Active Member Typist Anglican

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    I am honestly torn on this issue. Theoretically, women should not be ordained. There isn't any strong Scriptural or Traditional precedent, so that. But I'm not convinced that the sacraments aren't valid with a female presider, or that their preaching lacks the Spirit and the mediation of God. From experience, I can't say I have ever felt any different taking communion from a woman than a man, or hearing them preach, though my experience is naturally limited in this regard. So, I don't know. It seems as though the Church lives in the parishes shepherded by women, which inclines me to listen to the arguments for accepting their ordination.
     
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  8. theEpiscopalavenger

    theEpiscopalavenger New Member

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    Why not talk to her about your issues with women priest maybe she can give more valuable perspectives than we could.
     
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  9. Aidan

    Aidan Well-Known Member

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    I have never heard of nor read of women priests behind the iron curtain Tom. From where did you get this?
     
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  10. Tom

    Tom New Member Anglican

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    I remember reading it somewhere ( completely unreliable I know but I cannot remember where sorry) that was arguing why there should be female Priests but as Father Mark pointed out it was possibly more likely that they were Eucharistic ministers who helped smuggle the 'Bread and Wine' to catholics in Communist countries.
     
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  11. Tom

    Tom New Member Anglican

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    Found it http://www.womensordination.org/resources/top-ten-reasons-to-ordain-women/ Biased source but their reason 4 states;

    "On December 28, 1970, Bishop Felix Davidek ordained Ludmila Javorova a priest in the underground church of Communist Czechoslovakia. In 1991, Cardinal Miloslav Vlk of Prague confirmed that five other women were also ordained as priests during that time."
     
  12. anglican74

    anglican74 Well-Known Member Anglican

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    1. It sounds like hearsay (heresy hearsay)?
    He said she said. Someone whispered to someone else. There is no proof, and posted on a highly ideological (not fact-centered website).It's absolute nonsense in the actual 1000s-of-years of history of the Church.

    2. The Roman catholic tradition is replete with weaknesses in ecclesiology. After all, it is known that the Pope gave abbots (who were priests) the right to ordain others as priest, in the middle ages. I mean that's straight up presbyterianism, totally alien to us and to the Fathers, but in Rome, as long as people adhere to the Pope, it seems that anything goes. So even if there was a violation of the apostolic order in the soviet era, it speaks absolutely nothing to the reasons why we oppose women's ordination, which is based on timeless truth, not on Roman catholic precedents. They don't set the pattern that we somehow have to follow.
     
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  13. theEpiscopalavenger

    theEpiscopalavenger New Member

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    Again why not talk to your priest and see what she says. She will be able to bring another voice to this situation ask her in church after mass.
     
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  14. Lowly Layman

    Lowly Layman Well-Known Member Anglican

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    I have said this before on the forums and I'll reiterate it here. I do not support women as priests for all the reasons stated above: its unscriptural, nontraditional, un-Catholic, irregular, and disordered. I say this as even now one parish I have attended for some years has a rector, associate priest, and 2 deacons and not one man is among them. I can't point to one problem that they've brought to the offices they hold that a man wouldn't have similarly brought, like most TEC ministers their theology is fuzzy and their agenda is progressive but they are each one powerful and gifted preachers, they are fastidious with their administration of the sacraments, and they are as deeply caring of the cure of souls, if not more so, as any male priest I've come across.

    But as our old friend @High Churchman used to say, "how-and-ever", being a gifted servant of God's church does not necessitate ordination. I am a layman, and proud to be so. My offerings are of no less import as a priests. These ladies could put their gifts to use in the church without causing the scandal that WO has. In fact, because they would not be participating in an unscriptural innovation that fractures us off from the other members of the church militant and the constant witness of the church catholic, their work would be even more beneficial.

    I disagree with others here in saying women CANNOT be (just that they SHOULD NOT be) clerics and that their sacraments are void and of no effect. That raises some serious questionz about the state of their parishioners' souls and I don't think God would let that occur to earnest believers. Besides, Article 25 leads me to believe that the efficacy of the sacraments does not depend on the fitness of the minister.
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2017
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  15. peter

    peter Member

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    Presumably you mean Article 26, since 25 talks about the number of sacraments. Article 25 states that the validity of a sacrament does not depend on the worthiness of the minister. This is in response to an ancient heresy called Donatism, which teaches that only a priest living a moral lifestyle can validly confect the Sacrament. It is not about the validity of Orders IMHO. A woman simply can not be validly ordained. There are several passages of scripture supporting this.
     
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  16. theEpiscopalavenger

    theEpiscopalavenger New Member

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    The rampant sexism in the biblical interpretations presented here is crazy
     
  17. Tom

    Tom New Member Anglican

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    I am afraid I do not see where it is "crazy", everyone here has posted well areticulated arguments against Women Ordination and specifically on female Priests validity. I fear that your view of "sexism" is rather subjective. Believing that men and women are different is not sexism, following the Church's tradition (that the Anglican church prides and roots itself on) on Holy Orders is also not sexist.
     
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  18. theEpiscopalavenger

    theEpiscopalavenger New Member

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    I suppose it depends on your definition of well articulated iv studied and read various books and bible commentaries on the subject but as the faith Episcopalian on this forum I expected to the the black sheep.
     
  19. theEpiscopalavenger

    theEpiscopalavenger New Member

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    And may I also say that Anglicanism also prides itself on its reasoning and logic it has always been a religion of great thinkers and theologians many of whom are women and women clergy one of my favorite saints ( in the episcopal church anyway) is Florence li Tim - oi whom I had the pleasure of putting together a ordination anniversary mass for is a great example.
     
  20. PotterMcKinney

    PotterMcKinney Active Member Typist Anglican

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    Certainly, I'm with you in knowing that Episcopalians are going to be the black sheep here. Though I do think it is wrong to imply that the complementarianism expressed here generally is just bigoted artificial hierarchy/defense of patriarchy. There are good reasons to reject the idea of WO, and if we are to go against the grain on that then we need to be doing it for the right reasons with proper thinking and exercise of sanctified reasoning, or else we will forsake the Church in our churches.
     
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